What would you do if ROCOR and the MP united tomorrow?

[rebecca]

It's been 6 years since I had any US history classes. What made FDR a communist dictator (are you referring to the New Deal, in which the government created all kinds of jobs and sort of hijacked the economy to bring the country out of depression?), and how did he sell Eastern Europe into slavery?

[Joe Zollars]

sounds like you got the standard unbiased (yeah right) opinion of what went on with the new deal. Yes new jobs were created, in govermental buerocracy anyways. It was the wartime industry of WWII that brought america out of the depressioin (and really it was not an american problem but a global pandemic) not the new deal.

What few jobs the new deal did create and whatever economic impact it did have, came with a horrible price tag, the dismantaling of american freedoms, the overtaxation of the society, etc.

"the role of the government in the economy is two fold, to protect the shores and deliver the mail." Thomas Jefferson

Nicholas Zollars

[Bogatyr]

As is clear, there is a price a pay for ecumenical participation. When doctrinal purity and Orthodox ecclesiology are compromised, the Church comes under assault. Wishing this upon less developed countries is cravenly anti-Orthodox. It's like wishing apostasy and promoting iscariotism amongst starving and oppressed peoples. That is utterly illegitimate and sectarian and is in line with the sectarian missions in the former communist block. It's throwing underpriveledged Orthodox to the wolves and promoting heresy! ANAXIOS!
As far as America being able to stave off the horrors of bolshevism, etc., America was not the world's only power and was, indeed, isolated during this period. There really is nothing they could have done.
Orthodoxia I Thanatos!
Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky

[mwoerl]

at this time, i have only a few minutes to address some of what you wrote. first of all, you mentioned (almost unbeleivably) the oldest, i fyou excuse the expression, red-herring of all:

"The MP could as well have its questions about the role of ROCOR hierarchs collaborating in Germany or Yugoslavia . . . "

If you know much of anything about the history of the ROCOR, you will know that the supposed "collaboration" of ROCOR hierarchs with the nazis did not amount to even a hill of beans compared to MP cooperation with the Soviets. Were any ROCOR hierarchs Gestapo officers? No. Were MP hierarchs KGB officers? Yes. Also-none of the ROCOR hierarchs who were accepted (either willingly, by being deceived, or by being blackmailed) by the MP after WWII was accused, charged, or tried for collaboration with the nazis. since the Soviets were looking hard in every corner and under every bed, so to speak, for collaborators, and since the Soviets controlled the MP and not the other way around, i doubt that the Soviets would let actual 'collaborators" off the hook becuase they were joining the MP. Sure, that was swell publicity, but just one real nice show trial would have been even better. But, there were none. Although Met. Seraphim (Lukianov) was most probably threatened with prosecution by a Met. Nikolai (Yarushevich)-that is an interesting story-when he joined the MP, no charges were ever proffered against him-becasue there was nothing to prosecute.

concering ecumenism, you wrote:

"Met. Kyrill of Smolensk claimed that "ecumenism is at a deadend" so perhaps things can turn a corner . . . "

did you perhaps come across this quote in something fr alexander lebedeff wrote? because, unfortunately for the "there is no more ecumenism in the MP" crowd, that was not the only thing that Met Kirill said. He went on to say,

"therefore, ecumenism needs to be renewed."

is that the "corner" you want to turn? i will presume you were not aware of the entire quote; unfortunately, i cannot presume the same for fr alexander; i have seen how he operates.

which brings another question: if the MP is soooooooo swell now, and everything is just hunky-dory, why do we have to hear the tired old stuff about supposed (and n ever proven yet!) "nazi collaboration," or be spoon fed half-quotes tojustify this union? you poeple need to do better than that, im afraid!

mwoerl

[Bogatyr]

I have to say that I feel comfortable having left. Aside from the disappointment and outright tediums of the cliques, the fr. lebedeff story is indeed scandalous. I met him once in Jordanville. Self-important, brash, and arrogant. I didn't care for him when he was spouting +anthony of los angeles' super-diocese nonsense. His treatment of HOCNA made something that could have been resolved a lasting schism. Then the expose of his liberalism and its blatant disregard for the legacy of ROCOR made me cringe. His attacks on ROCiE were politically motivated to distance people from the dialogue so that he could have a free hand. It is, indeed, appropos of someone who left the OCA and joined the ROCOR bandwagon in the 70s to now go his own way. I do believe his plan to negate and replace ROCOR's message was premeditated. There is no good that can come of his efforts. I hate political scammers.
The way I see it, Mr. Woerl, you will either have to be part of his ROCOR and accept its compromises or find another home for yourself. I have no suggestions, save one, approach these parties with the viewpoint that they are equivalent and it will give you some peace of mind. Step back and be an observer from a neutral vantage point and it will aid you in retaining your peace of mind. I comiserate with you and I understand your frustrations. Attacking others is not the answer. Simply put Orthodoxy first and KEEP THY MIND IN hell BUT DESPAIR NOT...
Orthodoxia I Thanatos!
Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky

[Dcn. John]

the oldest, i fyou excuse the expression, red-herring of all:

"The MP could as well have its questions about the role of ROCOR hierarchs collaborating in Germany or Yugoslavia . . . "

Mr Woerl-
It may indeed be a red herring for the ROCOR, same as the MP might consider the whole regurgitation of Sergianism 50 years after the death of Sergius and more than a decade after the fall of communism - another red herring. But look at who the Nazi's gave all the Russian churches to in the Reich. Add other gory details of ROCOR and MP history if you must, there are actually a few, but isn't that why both MP and ROCOR had conferences on the history of the Church the last 2 years? I'm surprised the procedings aren't published. Anyway - no, the collaboration in Russia and in Germany do not compare, but different sides of the table still have to apologize for their own lesser wrongs in order to move on into life together.

Athat was not the only thing that Met Kirill said. He went on to say,

"therefore, ecumenism needs to be renewed."

I know the whole quote of Met. Kyrill. The relevant part is that ecumenism as we have tried it is dead, read "The sixties are over flower people!". What form interdenominational relations will take - "renewed" as he says, will hopefully be one of cooperation to stand against secularism and Islam, but theologically to clearly state the truth concerning Orthodoxy, and no joint prayers which have torn at the Orthodox Church. I don't think the Church can simply say - we won't meet you Lutherans etc. anywhere. The Russian Church has a mission to play in bringing the light of the faith to all the world.

As far as "you people need to do better than that" - well, perhaps I do. I'm a poor wordsmith - you asked questions and I tried to reply. I think words have a place and action another. The Patriarchate has shown by her actions a change towards healing the divisions and the historical enslavement has come to the end. I don't think that it's "Sooo swell", it's just the reality. Some in ROCOR have a lot of words these days to justify their place. It does not reflect reality, neither ecclesiological nor theological, and thank God the hierarchy is starting to act towards healing a historical division now that the reality has changed.

In Christ,
Dcn. John

In Christ

[Bogatyr]

To the mp apologists, we ask, press to have anathemas placed on ecumenism and sergianism and renew the anathemas against renovationism. Show us your commitment to healing the divisions brought by the calendar schism and support the efforts of resisters for unity in the Church. Until then, the only empty rhetoric, with no real ecclesiological, historical or canonical foundation, IS THAT of the mp apologists.
Orthodoxia I Thanatos!
Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky