Filioque

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


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Seraphim Reeves
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Filioque

Post by Seraphim Reeves »

First, if you do not have a copy, I'd highly recommend The Teachings of the Holy Orthodox Church published by Dormition Skete. I've almost finished it, and must say that I've got quite a bit out of it.

A good insight that this book touches upon, has direct bearing upon the filioque clause.

Aside from the theory of Augustine of Hippo (the very uniqueness of which makes it suspect) regarding the procession of the Holy Spirit, none of the Fathers dared to say just what the procession of the Holy Spirit is, or what the "begotteness" of the Son is. In fact, they explicitely said such is beyond human knowledge, and it is presumptuous to try and state what such innerworkings within God in fact "are" - that we know of them at all, is a result of God's self revelation, not human cleverness - hence, we can only know what He has chosen to tell us, and nothing more than this. Presuming to go beyond this is the begining of all heresy - the replacement (or trespassing beyond the limites) of what God has revealed, with our own rationalizations. It is no different in regard to the teaching of the Church regarding the procession of the Holy Spirit.

St.John of Damascus writes...

For the Father alone is ungenerate, no other subsistence accounts for His existence. And the Son alonge is begotten, for He was generated of the Father's essence eternally. And only the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father's essence, not having been generated but simply proceeding. For this is the doctrine of the Holy Scriptures. The nature of this generation and this procession is quite beyond our understanding. (An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, I,18 )



I've noticed that many times in arguments between Roman Catholics and Orthodox over the filioque issue it is often pointed out that the Fathers often seem to speak of the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Son, particularly Latin Fathers.

A key problem with this confusion (and the work I mentioned above gets into this, with plenty of Patristic quotes in support of the author's explanations) is that it is typically grounded in a very post-schism-Latin problem - a refusal (consciously or unwittingly) to differentiate between the "inner/essential" matters pertaining to God, and the "economic/energetic" things which can be said of God... or put another way the "essential Trinity" as differentiated from the "economic Trinity."

According to the Church, man only knows God by His self revelation, which is something "energetic" (sometimes called "temporal", though this can be misleading, and is only true of certain acts/manifestations of God's uncreated energies.) There can be no knowledge of His essence, whether in this life or in eternity; this is something the Papists explicitly deny, in particular in their teaching on the "Beatific Vision". Beatitude (which is the state of the righteous who sleep in Christ) for them, is the intellectual apprehension of the Divine Essence. This is untrue, and anathema as far as the Fathers (both Eastern and Western) were concerned.

This is where the mischief begins...

Because the Latins no longer recognize the difference beween the "economic" and "essential" Holy Trinity, they are already in no position to properly understand the Fathers in general, in particular their own Fathers.

While the Fathers (and the Holy Scriptures) speak of the Holy Spirit proceeding solely from the Father "essentially", it is also true that energetically He is manifested through the Son, resting upon the Son, and being sent by Him.

This is why the Fathers speak in varying ways on this subject. The Eastern Fathers were generally more precise in their language, generally making it very clear whether they were speaking of the "essential" or "economic" Trinity...or when they speak in terms of a "synthesis" of both, they will say that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father, through the Son", or something like this.

OTOH, the Western Fathers generally (though not always) did not explicitly make the distinction - it is something you'll generally find more implied. Sometimes they will go back and forth between the two sense in the same statement. For example, St.Paulinus writes...

There is one God the Father, and in Him one Son, and from Him Who is the Word, the one Spirit. These three Persons are one God forever. The single nature of God is God, consisting of Son, Spirit and Father; but the Son is born of the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father. No nature in the created order has anything in common with or may be compared to the divine nature (Poem XIX, 140)



As is pointed out by Fr.Michael Azkoul (author of this marvelous work), St.Paulinus states that the Holy Spirit is "from the Word", yet then goes onto say He "proceeds from the Father" (not "Father and the Son".) Speaking in two different ways in the same sentence, it's clear St.Paulinus has in mind, in the previous case, the "economic Trinity", where as in the latter the "essential Trinity."

Perhaps a saying which is particularly liable to being misunderstood by someone unwilling to make the Patristic essential/energetic distinction, is to be found in the following teaching of St.Hilary of Poitiers...

The Spirit of Truth proceeds from the Father; He is sent by the Son and receives from the Son. Now, all that belongs to the Father belongs to the Son, and for that reason He who receives from Him is the Spirit of God; but at the same time, He is the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit posesses the same nature as the Son, and both are identical in naure with the Father. He is the Spirit of Him Who raised Christ from the dead; but this is no other than the Spirit of Christ. The Divine Persons of Christ and the Father can be shown to differ in some respects if also it can be shown that the Spirit which is from God the Father is not the very Spirit of Christ.(On the Trinity VIII, 26)



While St.Hilary does not say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son (which in context here is speaking of the "trancendent Trinity"/"essential Trinity" addressed in the Nicene Creed), he later says everything but this regarding the manifestation of the Holy Spirit from the Son. Part of the confusion is also due to that phrase "temporal manifestation of the Holy Spirit", which is not wholly correct, or at least liable to be misunderstood (since the Fathers definately understood that the Holy Spirit, even in eternity, is manifested through the Son.)

However, St.Hilary lets his thought on the matter become very clear when he sais in the same work, later on...

But I cannot describe Him whose plea for me I cannot describe. As in the revelation that Thy Only-begotten was born of Thee before times eternal, when we cease to struggle with the ambiguities of language and difficulties of thought, the one certainty remains; so I hold fast that the Spirit is from Thee and through Him, although I cannot comprehend it with my intellect... (On the Trinity XII, 56)



The close of that statement is very clear; St.Hilary makes the distinction between the Holy Spirit being "from the Father" but "through" the Son.

Hence, there is in a sense an "Orthodox filioque" if by this one means the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father, through the Son. Many times, the Fathers, both Western and Eastern, speak in such a fashion (though admittedly the latter are typically clearer in their manner of expression on this issue). Unfortunately, this is historically not what the Papists have meant.

The beginning of the controversy of the filioque clause is manifold...

1) The insertion itself is illegitimate, being a provincial intrusion into something that was accepted by the whole Church.

2) The favour with which this clause was taken into by the (then) new Frankish lords of the now Barbarian dominated west, was without a doubt due to the favour said men (particularly Charlemagne) held the writings of Augustine of Hippo in (which were not well known, at least in their totality, in the Christian East, and never were up until relatively recently), who definately taught the heretical filioque clause - an essential procession of the Holy Spirit from both the Father and the Son, based on a theory that the Holy Spirit was the "love personified" of Father and the Son for one another - misguided both for over-riding the Creed, but also for doing precisely what the Fathers universally denied was possible (defining precisely what the nature of the "procession" or "begotteness" of the Holy Spirit and the Son are). It spread largely due to the influence of these temporal rulers, whose obession with Augustine (to the almost total exclusion of other Fathers, even Latin Fathers) explains why Augustine is regarded as the "greatest Father" by so many modern Roman Catholics; a level of esteem Augustine did not possess in the west prior to this period.

3) Later, this basically Augustinian understanding of the Holy Trinity would become a dogma of the RCC - it would be come, at the Council of Florence, a condition for the "return" of the "erring Greeks" to the Pope's communion. Florence is still numbered as an "Ecumenical Council" by the Roman Catholics, and it's doctrinal formulations are "infallible dogmas" which cannot be rescinded. This Augustinian heresy would be bolstered latter on, by a new development (already well rooted throughout the west by the time Florence came about) - a complete ignorance of the real difference between the "essence" of God and His "energies". With such an ignorance/denial, the few other Patristic works (largely Latin Fathers) which the Papists would use to try and justify this innovation, would lend themselves to an easy misreading.

In modern times, I suspect most RC "theologians" realize their "case" in favour of the filioque clause looks very bad, and that it should never have been inserted into the Creed. At the very least, they believe this is bad for "ecumenism." Hence, there's been a concerted attempt to "minimalize" this error (imho, basically obfuscate it.)

One attempt, has been to say that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son as 'one principle'". Such an articulation might have been acceptable, were it not for the fact that the Latins have otherwise "solemnly defined" teachings which are blatantly heretical on this subject. For while the "one principle" teaching can be understood to speak solely of the "temporal" or "economic Trinity" (how God reveals Himself, in particular, the Person of the Holy Spirit), it is intentionally vague so as to easily allow the old school, Augustinian/Florence Papal doctrine to remain unopposed. A similar gesture has been to freely allow Uniates to use the genuine form of the Nicene Creed in their services, with the tacit (even if only on paper) understanding that they accept the theology of the heretical filioque teaching (or at least do not oppose it, which seems to be key with all things involving Papal politics.) There is even talk that the Latins themselves will drop this clause from the publically used Creed...however, this would be more obfuscation on their part, if it did not include a repudiation of the Council of Florence, and similar "dogmatic" statements made by the Papacy in the past (and it's subordinates) in favour of this error.

Seraphim

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Post by schetsmark »

Seraphim,

From the summary, it looks to be a comprehensive work. Thank you for the summary. I may order it.

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Justinianus,

From the summary, it looks to be a comprehensive work. Thank you for the summary. I may order it.

It's a very good introduction. The discussion of the "filioque" is only a part of the broader discussion of the Holy Trinity. Her is the table of contents...

Chapter 1 Introduction

  1. The Apostolic Tradition
  2. Dogma
  3. The Western Heterodox
  4. Scriptures
  5. Kerygma
  6. Episcopacy
  7. The Vincentian Canon
  8. The Fathers
  9. Gnosis
  10. Modern Reason
  11. The Return to Tradition

Chatper 2 God: The Holy Trinity

  1. The Theologian
  2. The Knowledge of God
  3. God in the Holy Scriptures
  4. The Holy Trinity in the Fathers
  5. The Uncreated Energies
  6. God the Creator
  7. Evil

Chapter 3 The Creation

  1. The Angels
  2. The devil and demons
  3. The Physical World
  4. The Nature of Man
  5. The Image and Likeness of God
  6. Adam and Eve: Paradise
  7. The Fall of Man
  8. Providence

Chapter 4 The Economy of Old Israel

  1. Abraham
  2. Moses and Christ
  3. Exodus
  4. Jesus, Son of Nun
  5. King David
  6. The New Covenant
  7. The Messiah
  8. The Apostasy of the Jews

Chapter 5 Jesus The Christ

  1. The Last Days
  2. The Saviour
  3. The Second Adam
  4. The Christ
  5. The Passion
  6. The Descent into Hades
  7. The Sabbath and the Resurrection
  8. The Ascension

Appendix - Augustine of Hippo

Footnotes

Glossary

Index

As you can see, it covers quite a bit of ground. However, it is only 236 pages (though it seems like far more - very rich.)

Though you could probably dive right into this work, I think as an introduction, someone would be best served to have done the following first...

  • read a basic catechism of Orthodoxy; I'd recommend the one posted on Juvenaly's website - it's on this page under the heading "A Catechism of the ROAC".

  • a cursory knowledge of Biblical history is handy. This doesn't necessarily mean someone has to have read the entirity of the Bible already - simply that at least a basic knowledge of the major events of both the Old and New Testaments will make the insights offered in this book far more useful.

Seraphim

LatinTrad
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Post by LatinTrad »

Oy. :ohvey:

Once again I have to post short snippets because I'm at work, but anyway . . .

Seraphim, I find it quite deft that you guys claim that no one can know the inner workings of the Trinity, and then you go and label certain explanations "heretical" and others "orthodox." Of course we cannot fully grasp it. But if no one could know anything about the inner workings of the Trinity, we would really be sunk. And of course, in practice, you guys do exactly the same thing as we.

Note that when St. Augustine talks about the Holy Spirit as "Love personified" he is not claiming to know HOW the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally as Love personified--merely that Scripture reveals the Holy Spirit to us as Love personified.

You also misrepresent Catholic teaching on the Beatific Vision. The Beatific Vision is a total UNION of the soul with God--of course the Catholic Church has never taught that we completely comprehend God's Essence. That would be absurd. However, contemplation is the highest act of our highest faculty. Through contemplation, we are united with what we contemplate. Through the Lumen Gloriae, the soul in Heaven can contemplate God--although of course she can never GRASP Him fully. Not even the highest Angels or the Theotokos herself can do that. NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER EXCEPT THE SON!

I challenge you to find me one citation, Patristic or otherwise, that indicates that the Universal Church ever considered the Filioque to be heretical. You are looking at the Filioque in a manner similar to the way the Monophysites looked at Chalcedon, or the semi-Arians at Nicea. "In the past it wasn't said, so why should it be said now?"

I encourage you to read (maybe you already have) St. Thomas Aquinas' Part I, Question 36 of the Summa Theologiae. He ably answers ALL of the arguments that are continually brought up by those who insist on the Filioque being heretical. Also, keep in mind that for us, Per Filium is an AMPLIFICATION of the Filioque, not a watering down of it.

Also, how do you guys handle the Symbol of Athanasius? He was not a western patriarch or anything--not so easy to accuse him of heresy the way you accuse St. Augustine.

I must go now--wish I had more time.

God bless.

LatinTrad

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

I challenge you to find me one citation, Patristic or otherwise, that indicates that the Universal Church ever considered the Filioque to be heretical.

lol

The Eighth Ecumenical Council 0f 879-880 where Pope John VIII, one of the last Orthodox popes, signed and declared that the Filioque was heretical and anathematized anyone espousing such things. The Franks hated him so much for doing this in later years the legend of Pope "Joan" was born.

That is just one. I have more.

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

LatinTrad,

Seraphim, I find it quite deft that you guys claim that no one can know the inner workings of the Trinity

No, I didn't claim that at all. What I did say, is that to presume beyond what God has chosen to reveal, is anathema to the Church of Christ - and that the type of rationalism behind any attempt to do such, is what underlies heresy in general.

What is also unknowable (which Papism also denies) is also the "essence" of God - what God "is". This is why the Latin teaching of the "beatific vision" as it came to be understood, and Augustine's whole manner of theology by "analogy" is false - whatever God "is", is so utterly disimilar to anything else (which would be created) as to make such comparisons misleading, at best; this includes comparison to man (man's being made in the "Divine Image" refers to his capacity to free will, and his ability to acquire the "likeness" of God, that is to say, to be assimilated into His Glory.)

and then you go and label certain explanations "heretical" and others "orthodox." Of course we cannot fully grasp it. But if no one could know anything about the inner workings of the Trinity, we would really be sunk. And of course, in practice, you guys do exactly the same thing as we.

Not even close. Your whole argument here fails, since you've totally mischaracterized what I've said.

What differentiates Orthodoxy from Papism, is the latter is fundamentally rationalistic, and treats the Light received by the Holy Apostles and Fathers as something "incomplete" - datum for later syllogisms at the hands of philosophers and savants.

Note that when St. Augustine talks about the Holy Spirit as "Love personified" he is not claiming to know HOW the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally as Love personified--merely that Scripture reveals the Holy Spirit to us as Love personified.

This is precisely what he is doing, for the whole reason for his delving into this subject was to show how the "begotteness" of the Son differentiates itself from the "procession" of the Holy Spirit. In his opinion (and that of later scholastics) if this cannot be explained, then we are to "logically" conclude that there is no difference; in which case the Son and the Holy Spirit would "have" to be the "same person." Of course this idle curiosity at best, bare headed vanity at worst.

You also misrepresent Catholic teaching on the Beatific Vision. The Beatific Vision is a total UNION of the soul with God--of course the Catholic Church has never taught that we completely comprehend God's Essence.

Did I ever say "completely"? See, here you again put words in my mouth - while affirming precisely what I did say - that Roman Catholicism teaches the possibility of "knowing" the "essence" of God.

Simply put, if you can come to such knowledge, you're not with God. However, even the above is double talk - on one hand "knowing the essence" but "not completely" (what, does God have parts?) - which would seem to me, be really a case of "knowing" whatever God is revealing to the soul...in which case, you're talking about an energetic relationship, which doesn't require some kind of direct "apprehension" of what God "is", which is utterly impossible to begin with.

However, contemplation is the highest act of our highest faculty. Through contemplation, we are united with what we contemplate. Through the Lumen Gloriae, the soul in Heaven can contemplate God--although of course she can never GRASP Him fully. Not even the highest Angels or the Theotokos herself can do that. NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER EXCEPT THE SON!

It's curious that your tradition affirms the absolute simplicity of God, yet claims one actually apprehending His essence does not grasp this "fully".

I challenge you to find me one citation, Patristic or otherwise, that indicates that the Universal Church ever considered the Filioque to be heretical. You are looking at the Filioque in a manner similar to the way the Monophysites looked at Chalcedon, or the semi-Arians at Nicea. "In the past it wasn't said, so why should it be said now?"

OOD beat me to it. A Pope signed off on this one.

Also, how do you guys handle the Symbol of Athanasius? He was not a western patriarch or anything--not so easy to accuse him of heresy the way you accuse St. Augustine.

Oh come now...you must know as well as anyone here this is a western document, which was unknown to the Christian East, and which without doubt was not written by St.Athanasios!

What next, going to trot out the Donation of Constantine for us to consider?

Seraphim

LatinTrad
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Post by LatinTrad »

Seraphim, your post is so filled with errors that I don't know where to start.

1) Please cite the exact quote from John VII. As I recall he NEVER used the word "heretical" in relation to the Filioque. Every single time you guys have made an assertion like that, and I've gone back to check it, I've found that you guys are wrong.

2) If John VII thought that the Filioque was heretical, why were the Spanish never excommunicated for it? Huh? Come on! The issue was not heresy (at least not until long after 1054). The issue was whether a local council could change the creed used in the Liturgy.

Oh, by the way, this:

What differentiates Orthodoxy from Papism, is the latter is fundamentally rationalistic, and treats the Light received by the Holy Apostles and Fathers as something "incomplete" - datum for later syllogisms at the hands of philosophers and savants.

makes no sense at all. What are you doing right now, as you type? You are using syllogisms to explain the Fathers and Councils to me.

Catholicism, which you insist on calling "Papism," actually views the
Depositum Fidei as complete with the death of St. John the Evangelist. Later Fathers and Doctors sought to explain it, clarify it, and defend it from error. Nevertheless, the ultimate custodian of the Deposit of Faith is not the Fathers or later "savants" but the Church herself. You know as well as I do that the Fathers sometimes contradicted one another. Could they possibly be the ultimate guide, never needing clarification? You seem to treat the Fathers the way Protestants treat the Bible--as a dead-letter, written-down court of appeal. Ultimately, however, the living Church is the guardian of both the Fathers AND the Bible.

Regarding the simplicity of the Godhead--keep in mind that simplicity does not mean "easy to understand". Simplicity IN THIS SENSE OF THE TERM means "having no parts or diverse components." Even should we contemplate God for an eternity, He would still be ever ancient and ever new. We would never know Him the way He knows Himself, because that is impossible for a creature. Our MODE OF KNOWING does not allow us to do that.

Sorry about the Athanasian creed.

Anyway, there's probably more to repond to, but I got 2 and a half hours sleep last night and so I have to stop. Happy Thanksgiving to all.

LatinTrad

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