re-ordination?

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


mwoerl

reading the canons . . .

Post by mwoerl »

dear juvenaly,

first of all, i would like very much to congratulate you on the fact that you have recently become a catechumen, entering upon the first step of becoming a member of the Body of Christ, His Holy Orthodox Church. May God grant you many years as an Orthodox Christian, both to serve Him and to work out your salvation!

you ask if i find it "abnormal" that people would seek all the knowledge they can regarding their faith, and in doing so, make an informed decision. no, i would not find that "abnormal" in the least; i would also point out that nothing i can see in my post indicated that i would see that situation as "abnormal," and will admit that your adoption of this rather defensive tone here somewhat amazed me!

you also ask what how long you have been orthodox has to do with reading the canons, basically, and go on to add that you do not know why i feel "this has any merit to your post." this is not very clear to me, but i presume what you are trying to say is: "what does how long i have been orthodox have to do with reading the canons?" i would also observe that the way this thought was expressed was, again, somewhat on the defensive side! instead of asking the question, you seem to want to question the "merit" of my post. be that as it may, i hope to illustrate that reading the canons, especially, i would think, in the situation where you "can't wait to," has quite a lot to do with how long you have been orthodox!

as you state that you recently became a catechumen, in other words, you are not orthodox yet. you also state that you have been "studying orthodoxy for three years." i must compliment you in that you have begun the study of an inexhaustible subject! i began studying orthodoxy when i was around 10 years old, at which time a nun at the school (roman catholic) that i went to gave me a book entitled "the history of the mass."

the book included the history of eastern liturgical services, as well as illustrations of vestments for the various orders of clergy (deacon, priest, bishop- not the roman catholic "orders" such as franciscans, dominicans, etc.) we were taught in the school that the roman catholic church was "the one, true church," and that if you were not roman catholic, when you died, you went directly to hell. when i began studying the orthodox church, almost immediately i felt that "hey-they have a better claim to being the one, true church!" from that point, until i was around 30, i studied orthodoxy rather intermittently. at the age of 30, i began a more intensive study, which culminated in my baptism in 1985 at the age of 34. of course i have been studying orthodoxy ever since, and consider one of my "important discoveries" to be that i have learned that what i DON'T know far, far outweighs what i DO know!

i would like to point out first and foremost, orthodoxy IS NOT an "intellectual pursuit." there is no "reward" for what we know; there is no "contest" to see how much we can cram into our brains. rather, the "reward," or punishment, comes to us in accordance as to how we APPLY what we know. in many, many ways, this is a most serious, and even sometimes frightening thing.

and although orthodoxy would differ from secular intellectual pursuits in that wise, it is similar in another way. which is this-say a person decided to become, oh, say-a doctor. of course, one would have to follow the conventional path of education for doctors. one would not begin by checking out tomes on brain surgery from the medical library. how, you might ask, is this similar to orthodoxy?

there have been many, many books produced in connection with the orthodox church. books on the liturgical aspects; books on spiritual aspects; lives of the saints; historical works; books on monastic life; books on church discipline; books on iconography; the subject matter is rather wide . . . and, not all of these books were written for the same "audience." some books are for monastics; some are for those at a higher level of spiritual development; some are for beginners, some are for clergy. in fact, those beginning on the spiritual path of orthodoxy are even warned against reading some books which are for the more 'advanced' spiritually.
in our day and age, unfortunately, many do not see the wisdom of taking any advice; many consider it an insult to thier 'intelligence,' or their 'freedom,' or their 'self-esteem' to be told that this or that particular work is unsuitable for them to read at a certain point in their development.

when one is new to the faith, there is undoubtedly an great zeal for the faith present; this zeal often translates into wanting to know "everything." orthodoxy is one of those subjects about which we cannot know "everything." those who evince a zeal for that unattainable goal evoke knowing smiles from those who have "been around for awhile." unfortunately, there is also often a zeal to "practice" what has been "learned" in the condemnation or judgment of others. this is a very grave and dangerous error.

the canons of the church are meant for the governance of the church; the governance of the church is undertaken, of course, by the bishops of the church. in that aspect, one who has not yet even experienced the "death of the old man" in the waters of baptism would have no practical reason whatsoever for reading the canons. those who are basically inexperienced in orthodoxy and who feel it necessary to undertake a study of the canons many, many times experience the pitfall of them "pronouncing" which bishops and which churches are "violating" the canons, what their punishment should be, what they need to do to repent. such judgments are above and beyond the call of duty for the average layman, much less one who has not yet been baptized. i would also say that the canons are comtained in a rather large and heavy volume! (i have never assigned myself the task of reading it all, altough i have read through various different canons) if one were to force oneself to wade through it, i do not imagine that one could remember much once one was done! it is not exactly easy going!

i would also caution that reading the canons could lead one to despair, and giving up on orthodoxy altogether. how? again, the canons are the guide used by the bishops of the church in order to govern it. they are not a black and white signed sealed and delivered this is th eonly possible way it can be thing. the bishops of the church are given some latitude as tho how the various canons are applied, whether strictness or leniency is used in that application. also, as has been observed more than once, in a 'strictly canonical' sense, there is no church in existence today that can claim a 'spotless' canonical "record." one can drive oneself to distraction by pondering these things over and over and over and over. simple laymen, expecially those who are not yet even baptized, are neither interpreters, commentators, or appliers of the canons. and that is as it should be.

and, before anyone makes a big case about ecumenism, the calendar, etc etc etc in regard to what i have said here, i would retort that we have had an ample number of bishops of the church who have made thier observations and decisions onthis matter; we do not "need" the additional input of catechumens, newly baptized, or other inexperienced, or even "experienced" laymen to tell us thier opinions on the matter!

i would suggest that you talk over with a priest who knows you what you should be reading at this stage. i do not know of ANY orthodox priest on the face of this earth who would recommend reading the canons to a catechumen, or to one newly baptized! if there i such a creature in existence, i would question the motives behind the recommendation of such a reading assignment! if one is attempting to justify such and such a position by the canons-well-it would not surprise me. however, again, i have never heard of any priest who would recommend the canons as any sort of "introduction" to orthodoxy, or to anyone at such a basic level.

i would also -and very serioulsy - suggest, that if you feel you do not need ANYONE to advise you about such matters, that you consider something other than orthodoxy-if indeed you do harbor such attitudes-believe me, you will not "like" being orthodox!

what have you read juveanly? have you read "the way of the ascetics," by tito colliander? have you read "russia's catacomb saints"? have you read many lives of the saints? there are also now available many good books on practical aspects of orthodoxy-fasting, etc etc etc. are you familair with the liturgical services and cycle? have you read saint theophylact's commentaries on the gospels? saint john chrysostom's commentaries on the epistles? are you at all familiar with the history of orthodoxy in the 20th century-that is, on more than a superficial level? are you familiar with the history of the russian church abroad, on more than a superficial level? if you answer yes to the last question, i would be surprised unless you are fluent in russian; if you are not, i would ask waht sources you have referred to, as there is not much available in english on that particular topic that is beyond the superficial!

so, juvenaly, you see, i did not mean to insult you, or make fun of you, or denigrate you in any way, as it seems you may have thought i was attempting to do from the way you chose to answer my question as to why you wanted to read the canons. to be honest with you, with all that is available, the canons are a rather strange choice to be perusing in order to "gain all the knowledge you can," as you stated. i am sure you have not completely exhausted all the possible choices for reading that would be more suitable for a catechumen.

if i have indeed offended you, i ask your forgiveness, and ask you you remember me, a sinner, in your prayers.

michael woerl

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Грешник
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Post by Грешник »

Ok, after all that I might need to re-read that again. However, first off I mist be the one to appologize. My mind was not with my post. This being said I should not have posted as it has caused some discord. I did not mean to "jump down your throat" at all and I am sorry.

My reasons for reading the Canons is truthfully because I have read the Canon Law of the Roman Church in the past (1917 version, 100% Latin.. yeah lotsa fun) and I wanted to take note ofd the many obvious differences. I do not feel that the Canons should be used as a "stone throwing competition" as that would do them unjustice.

I have read some of the books you have suggested but not all. Also, I have no problem with reproachment, like I said I wrongly became defensive. This is something I am working on with my spiritual director. It is hard for me at this stage to not become defensive when the Church I belong to is constantly harassed nad downgraded by those who do not seem to appreciate what it has to offer. This also I am working on and ask for prayers and forgicveness.

i would also -and very serioulsy - suggest, that if you feel you do not need ANYONE to advise you about such matters, that you consider something other than orthodoxy-if indeed you do harbor such attitudes-believe me, you will not "like" being orthodox!

I am not sure what exactly you are getting at here but I am not going ot assume anything, I will leave that to you if you wish to explain.

Again I apologize for flipping out as it was the wrong thing to do. Yes I am new to an active life oin Orthodoxy and I am learning from my mistakes. Please pray for me.

Juvenaly

mwoerl

canons again . . .

Post by mwoerl »

Dear Juvenaly,

No apology necessary!

You read the entire Roman Catholic Code of Canon? Whoaaaaaaaaa . . .
i think i can truthfully say that i would rather haev my eyes poked out by extremely sharp red hot metal instruments than to subject my self to that!

I think the main "difference" would be that while the Roman Catholics seemingly have a hard and fast rule for every possible thing that could possibly ever happen-every possible happening is ruled on, right there in black and white, there are a lot of "gray areas" in Orthodoxy.

you asked what i was getting at with this:

"i would also -and very serioulsy - suggest, that if you feel you do not need ANYONE to advise you about such matters, that you consider something other than orthodoxy-if indeed you do harbor such attitudes-believe me, you will not "like" being orthodox!"

just that in Orthodoxy, it is important to have access to those who are qualified and are willing to advise us in many different areas-i was reacting to what seemed to be your "independent" bent of mind, and suggesting that if you were indeed of a very independent bent of mind, and felt no need whatsoever for advisers and advice, that you indeed would not like Orthodoxy because one simply must be open to and willing to take advice and direction if one is serious about being Orthodox. while i see i was mistaken about your "bent of mind," i feel i still cannot stress that aspect enough.

you also write:

"It is hard for me at this stage to not become defensive when the Church I belong to is constantly harassed and downgraded by those who do not seem to appreciate what it has to offer."

I have experienced this very same thing as a member of the ROCOR. While i agree that it is very very difficult NOT to become defensive, that tact usually turns out to be self-defeating. you must also realize that the truth of orthodoxy will always be subjected to mockery and derision by those who feel that they possess the truth, or by those who feel that no one possesses the truth. one has to reach the point where one simply "considers the source," answers only those points that can possibly be answered in a civil and clear manner, and ignore those who are attempting to provoke a hostile reaction.

hostile reactions, unclear and rude answers, etc etc only will serve ultimately to hurt your cause. i wish you the best.

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mwoerl
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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

"i would also -and very serioulsy - suggest, that if you feel you do not need ANYONE to advise you about such matters, that you consider something other than orthodoxy-if indeed you do harbor such attitudes-believe me, you will not "like" being orthodox!"

I do not think the danger is being in possession of knowledge - that in itself is not dangerous.

One of the things I've noticed, historically, about Orthodoxy as opposed to Papism, is the lack of extreme-clericalism. You even notice this in the way (at least in my experience) many Orthodox will speak to you of "the Church" - there's more of a sense of their being a part of said entity, where as in popular Papist lingo, "the Church" is synonymous with "the heirarchy."

This is not to say there can be any confusion about the heirarchal nature of the Church, or the awesome reality of a sacerdotal Priesthood. However, I know historically in Orthodoxy there have been a significant number of non-clerical theologians. I'm not saying any one here would claim to be a quote "theologian", though I would think just like the title "mystic", all Orthodox are to some degree "theologians" just as all are to some degree "mystics"; neither are essentially the province of a special caste, or type of human being (though obviously the "degree" of either depends on the individual's learning and assimilation to God.)

Hence, I don't think there is any essential danger in studying the canons, just as there is no essential danger in laymen studying theological treatise' by the great teachers of the Church. The danger is more a subjective one, depending on the indivual - thus if one's spiritual reading is being supervised closely by a spiritual father, he may recommend, or outright forbid a certain person peering into certain things.

The main danger, I can think of, is if someone is reading such things, but forgets that it is not their place to enforce said canons. This would be the spirit of independence you're warning about, and that is definately a problem. Perhaps seeing this in his spiritual child, this may motivate a Priest to tell this person not to read such things, and put his interests in other areas.

As far as I've learned, unless there is a genuine issue regarding a Bishop's confession, and what he is teaching (in other words, their Orthodoxy), we have no right whatsoever to act independently of our Bishop...that includes if we don't think them particularly worthy of their office, or very well suited for their grave task. All sorts of mischief occurs, on the basis of such things. However, those are matters out of the hands of laymen, and the response to these should be prayer, or addressing those concerns to the Archpastors of one's Church (say, communicating those concerns to the Bishop presiding in one's Church, like the Metropolitan of ROAC, for example...that would be something the Synod would have to address.)

But of itself, studying the canons is not a bad thing. If anything, I'm somewhat suspicious of the attitude (which seems to becoming very prevelent in some quarters right now) that laymen should simply "pay and pray", and not conern themselves with matters touching directly upon their faith, let alone canonical matters. It seems to be a great way for unscrupulous persons (sadly, even those called to the episcopacy) to avoid any kind of accountability for what they are up to, no matter how shocking or absurd.

Of course, I say this all as an unwashed sinner, as is so often pointed out to me (oddly enough, very often by those who apparently accept the "validity" of Papist baptisms, one of which they are well aware I was subjected to). :)

Seraphim

mwoerl

the canons, knowledge, and human beings . . .

Post by mwoerl »

i agree that knowldge is not "dangerous" in itself; nor is the study of the canons "wrong" in some way. my objection, or to be more accurate, was the fact of someone who had been just made a catechumen stating that they "could not wait to read the canons." this chomping at the bit seemed to forbode just what you mentioned, seraphim-forgetting whose responsibility it is to apply the canons. in other words, a very human reaction, which is not exclusive to, but seems to be prevalent in people new to orthodoxy.

i think that situation was amicably taken care of, though.

the "pay and pray," phenomenon, however, is also disturbing to me. the way i see this bieng "enforced," perhaps it would be more accurate to describe it as "shutup, pay and pray."

sometimes i do not understand why the laity is referred to as the "rational sheep;" especially as of late, as when that faculty is exercised, that is when the "shutup, pay and pray" mentality comes to the fore.

i found it interesting that the australian diocese of rocor, in their clergy conference resolution on the subject of union with the mp, siad that ifrst the church (both the rocor and the mp) must retun to the norms of the all russian sobor of 1917-1918. this sobor legislated much more participation on the part of the clergy and laity, including clergy and laity voting for diocesan bishops. which would be something absolutely abhorrent to those who have the "pay and pray" mentality.

i know that this 1917-1918 all russian sobor is widely held in honor; many of its decisions are widely quoted; but, as far as i know, none of those who claim to "descend" from that sobor (the mp, rocor, roac, rocie, abp. lazar's group, catacomb groups) and its aftermath have ever actually put the decision concerning clergy and laity participating in choosing diocesan bishops into practice. for whatever reasons, apparently this is no longer seen as something 'desirable' on the part of the various bishops of these various "descendants" of the 1917-1918 sobor.

i also agree with your statement that "pay and pray" is a great way to avoid any accountability whatsoever. unfortunately, this is not the province of only the unscrupulous, as it seems the suggestion of accountability on the part of the episcopacy is not one that is well taken.

mwoerl

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