Address to ROCA, by Bishop Gregory

[CGW]

:ohvey: Still, for some, there is a need to dwell on a person and not to carefully examine the message.

There would be no need to "dwell on the person" were it not for the fact that the person's position and indeed the authority he assumes in even delivering such an address makes him part of the message. He is, after all, speaking with his miter on, as it were. It wouldn't be convincing for him to speak on the purity and correctness of another church if he had bound himself to a church which has equal or worse problems of the same sort.

Speaking strictly as a heretic, I have to wonder at a Christian message whose content boils down to "Forgive?? Never!!!"

[Грешник]

I realize that for the most part people are reading the words of Bp. Grgory and making the correlation of "Well, he said they would never convert..." But I think that is a matter of "wait and see". That is the point we are all at though isn't it?

We are waiting ot see what happens with the MP and ROCOR, nothing is for sure. And here again with Bp. Gregory's letter. I think the undertone is, "Well noone knows but it is very hard to tell and I DON'T THINK IT WILL HAPPEN, but TIME WILL TELL. I don't mean to read into his words in any way, but thisis MY OPINION and MY TAKE on the situation.

Juvenaly

[Bogatyr]

:ohvey: It's best firstly to respond to the trite rhetoric that, somehow, a Bishop is condemning others in an ultramontane fashion. I assess the situation thus...the indictment is of the lawlessness and the structure it has created and not of sinners. It is correct and quite Christian, except to the pc and heterodox, to correct the sinner whilst utterly denying legitimacy to the sin. That is the point +Bishop Gregory is making. His "canonicity"/ecclesial situation is striking to be of such import to some. The underlying idea behind it is that, if he, +Gregory is a sinner in an irregular situation, he has no voice to speak out despite his heirarchical office. Talk about liberal elitism, founded on ad hominem diatribe! Such pseudo-Christian sophistries are unworthy of the Master, but rather akin to the scribes and pharisees! TRULY ULTRA-MONTANE REASONING!!! DONATISM. Again, the weight of a statement is based upon its adherence to the TRUTH, not to the failings of a person.
Returning again to the point: +Bishop Gregory has written this statement out of love and concern for ROCOR, a body to which he devoted most of his life. His canonicity is as legitimate as any other Russian faction. But that should not matter. Simply address the content.
ORTHODOXIA I THANATOS!
Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky
PS The idea of unity I plagiarized. Its author is none other than St. John of San Francisco and its architect, Blessed +Metropolitan Philaret. I doubt seriously that this is of any interest to the current ROCOR. It was rather a thought I feel could be the reaction of us resisters to this ruinous union being put into effect.

[CGW]

:ohvey: It's best firstly to respond to the trite rhetoric that, somehow, a Bishop is condemning others in an ultramontane fashion.

Working without all the terminology, here's my clarification: Bishop Gregory spoke with his miter on, as it were, and thus spoke the voice of his church. And thus we have a church saying "never forgive!" as an official policy. Thus, to my (heretical) eye he's gone beyond sinning and into establishing doctrine. At the very least, he seems to be teaching what is contrary to the words of Jesus Himself.

Now, it's possible a ROAC synod might disavow Bishop Gregory's words, but I think it almost a certainty that such a synod would prefer to endorse what he said. Also, I would note that you've abruptly switched from defending his words to defending them as an acceptable error.

[Joe Zollars]

Vladyka is not saying never forgive. I know Vladyka prays for the conversion of hte MP to Orthodoxy, as he douptless prays for the conversion of all those outside the Church to Orthodoxy. However he does not see it happening, and believes the MP has reached the point where it is impossible for them as a group to repent and recant of their heresy and convert to the Orthodox Faith. However individuals in the soviet church are continuosly coming to the ROAC.

Of course Vladyka with all the saints prays for the day, and would indeed rejoice, when the MP repents and recants of its errors and returns to the Orthodox faith.

Nicholas Zollars

[CGW]

Vladyka is not saying never forgive.

To believe this, I'll have to hear it from his mouth, and not from yours.

[Joe Zollars]

ask fr. George, the Hegumen at Dormition Skete, or call the skete and ask Vladyka himself.

Nicholas Zollars