What would you do if ROCOR and the MP united tomorrow?

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What would you do if ROCOR joined the MP?

Celebrate

19
41%

Join a moderate eclesiology group not in communion w/ the MP (i.e. TOC)

8
17%

Join an extreme eclesiology group (i.e. GOC, ROAC, etc.)

12
26%

Be upset, but go along with my bishops

7
15%
 
Total votes: 46

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priestmark
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Post by priestmark »

stgregorythetheologian wrote:

Father Mark,

I don't know any dimensions off-hand, but if I can direct you to our website (www.orthodoxtacoma.com), you can see the contact information for our parish - as well as photos of our building,

From the photos I can tell you that this is no "shed" !!

Our chapel is an outbuilding (aka "shed") that served as a ceramics shop for the previous owners. It has plenty of electrical service (about 12000 VA), but only about 1/3 the footprint of your church in Tacoma. But is seems much smaller than that since certain necessities are the same no matter how big or small the layout. Outside of a couple of monastic chapels, and reports from Greek visitors of similarly sized village chapels, I have yet to find a smaller church - we're more shrine-sized really. I'm not complaining, I just hoped that I had found something I could identify with in your "shed", but I guess things of the world are all relative to different standards. Anyway your church is a really great size. I hope to someday expand ours to about half that. Even with your reported loss of parishioners, it looks like you will still have critical mass.

o.M

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Natasha
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Post by Natasha »

mwoerl wrote: "(are there ANY new oca churches being built that include an iconostas? i know an oca priest who visited the holy sepulchre-he told one of his parishioners upon his return that it had been so very wonderful to "walk in the footsteps of the lord," and then went on to observe that "it was terrible the way the place was junked up with icons and vigil lamps . . .") "

I have never heard of any oca churches without an iconostasis. However, that being said, I can believe that an oca priest would comment on the Church of the Holy Sepulchre being "junked up". In my own personal experience, I have seen a brand new oca priest come into an existing parish and take down the icons that were adorning space all over the walls (only removing the icons in Russian/Slavonic, how convienent) and then re-arrange the icons in English & Greek in straight lines around middle of the chapel walls, and re-paint every wall white. Not even an icon of St. Nicholas was left up!
Modernistic-you bet!

mwoerl

oca churches without iconostas

Post by mwoerl »

the new oca church in dayton, ohio, saint paul's, does not have an iconostas; it was built in the last couple of years; for several years, the parish used a protestant church bulding that they bought and "refurbished for orthodox worship." that edifice, also, did not have an iconostas.


i asked the pastor when the church was in the "refurbished" building why they did not have an iconostas, and he gave me a big deal about how the church abroad "idolized nineteenth century russia," and that the oca was more interested in concentrating on "more original (or perhaps ancient) sources" (this is an approximation of what he said-i do not remember his exact words), and therefore, the oca was more "into" the 3rd century, in which, he told me, the iconostas was not used. he alwyas wore a short-sleeved "roman collar" shirt, and told me that this was because patriarch tikhon (of course this was before the mp "canonized" him, so he did not refer to him as "saint tikhon"), when he was a bishop in north america, said that clergy should dress as "the gentlemen of the country." not knowing anyone who would fit that description and who also wore a short sleeved roman collar shirt. . . well-what can i say? i was, i might say, very sorely tempted to tell him that there were no cars in the 3rd century either, and wondered why he did not ride a horse to church. this priest alsotold me that he longed for he day when bishops would dump their "byzantine regalia," and dress more . . . modern.

i am also told that the chapel at saint vladimir's seminary has no iconostas-or did not at one time-i have seen photos-the photos i saw showed two large icons kind of sitting there-but there was definitely no iconostas! based on what the priest in dayton told me, as well as the photo i saw of the chapel at st vladimir's seminary, perhaps i mistakenly thought the absence of an iconostas was more widespread in the oca than it actually is . . . the new church in dayton is quite nice in other respects-but the iconosas was, indeed, left out intentionally (and how could it be left out 'unintentionally'????). i hope this is enough 'reality' for you!


the oca certainly does have, however, a very different 'spirit' than rocor- . . . i visited the oca's all american convention when it was held in st. louis in, i think, 1988-this was the first time i had seen any oca bishops, and any services where oca bishops were present. the services were held in the ballroom of the adam's mark hotel, where the convention was going on. there was a sort of a raised platform, or stage, where they had set up an altar. there was no iconostas there, either. we noticed two very very nice vigil lamps hanging in front of icons on the stage-they were really beautiful, in the shape of byzantine eagles-very nice, very unusual, looked also very expensive. we got there several minutes prior to the beginning of vespers. we were looking at these vigil lamps, and a fellow parishioner from st john chrysostom (rocor) parish in st. louis went right on the stage to look at them closely. he came back down, and told us that the lamps did not have oil, or a wick in them-he then commented, "just like the oca-a lot of show, but empty . . ." i had been to rocor services where bishops were serving. this vespers service was very different in that when the service began, only one or two of the maybe 8 or 10 bishops in attendance at the convention were present. as the service continued, the remainder of the bishops sort of meandered in one or two at a time, and during the vespers service, several were talking to each other during the entire service. while there may indeed have been important topics for the bishops to discuss concerning events at that all american convention, i must say that i have never seen such "chatting" going on among the bishops during a rocor service. there were two other memorable events at this convention (for me!)-one was humorous-there was all sorts of "ecclesiastical merchandise" on sale at many different booths set up by different purveyors of such goods. at one booth, they had dikiri-trikiri for sale. met. theodosius and abp. peter approached that booth together. met. theodosius selected a pair of dikiri-trikiri, sort of "weighed" them in his hands, held them up, then "blessed" with them three or four times-i was not close enough to hear any conversation-he then enthusiastically shook his head "yes," handed the dikiri-trikiri to abp. peter, who also did a few "test blessings," and also seemed enthusiastic about the merits of this pair of dikiri-trikiri! the other memorable event was NOT humorous-somehow, we got into one of the sessions of the convention. someone in this session, at the obvious urging of several others, asked for discussion of oca participation in ecumenism. this person was told that "the discussion is closed." this caused a sort of murmur and stir among the delegates; another person also asked that the discussion be reopened. the pronouncement that "the discussion is closed" was given, a bit more forcefully this time! and that was that! so much for the widely advertised 'democracy' of the all american conventions!

back to dayton, ohio-i am not aware of a website for the dayton oca parish-perhaps photos of that particular church are included in the oca's website-or a link to that parish website.

michael woerl

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尼古拉前执事
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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

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Natasha
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Post by Natasha »

unfortunately, nothing like that really shocks me anymore...its quite sad actually.....

Gregory2

Post by Gregory2 »

mwoerl,
Touche! Wow, I really find those photos nauseating! please forgive me, but I'd never heard of such a thing before, except with Western Rite Orthodoxy. I'm guessing that parish is not Western Rite? It really looks Roman Catholic!!

I visited SVS about 10 years ago, and, unless my mind fails me, they do have an iconostas there. Anastasios, can you help us out here?
I think that this parish is an aberration.... I've lived in America all my life and have been Orthodox all my life and have never seen an Orthodox church building without an iconostas. Thanks for making me less "naive"! I may e-mail the priest to get more information on this matter.

rebecca
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Post by rebecca »

The most common thing I've seen in new OCA churches (not that I've been to many) is that they have a partial wall with doors and icons, rather than an iconostas of a more "traditional" material.

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