Theotokos and Labor Pains

[Anastasios]

The only person "arguing" anything here is you.

Seraphim

Seraphim,

You can issue cheap shots all day. Why not stick to the discussion at hand.

anastasios

[Anastasios]

Of course James, the brother of our Lord probably was there.

Where were you taught these things?

They are my observations.

anastasios

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Anastasios,

Whenever you see an Icon of the Theotokos, you will see three stars - one on on each shoulder and one on her forehead (the clothes). This means that she was a Virgin before, DURING, and after the Birth of the Christ. If the icon does not have these stars, it is not an Orthodox icon - burn it.

Likewise, anyone who does not accept that Mary had a miraculous birth does not follow Holy Tradition and therefore does not hold the faith as taught by the Apostles (ie. Orthodoxy).

Now I would not have nearly the problem if you showed where the Holy Fathers taught as you do, but no. What I see is you applying your own rationalistic mind to come up with your own answers.

The sweet fragrance of deep faith and love for our holy Tradition does not come from books or seminary schools, it is taught from person to person, from father to son, from priest to layman. This is why I insist that Theology schools breed spiritual ignorance. No doubt you are reading Hopko’s heretical teaching regarding this.

They have reduced the religion of Christ to a system of worldly knowledge, to rationalism, who detect and mock every sound doctrine, which for them is a naive conception of superstitions.

I have been taught all sorts of traditions, little things, big things. Most of it you would laugh at hysterically because you would never read such things in a book. And if it doesn’t say it in a book, and if your "professors" don't teach it, well, then it must be in the realm of superstition.

"God has chosen the weak of the world to shame the strong", and "God hath made foolish the wisdom of the wise", because whereas the wise were silent and accepted heresy, the uneducated faithful are aroused.

[Anastasios]

Dear OOD,

Since I do not deny that Mary had a miraculous birth but instead am opposed to the way that some patristic fundamentalists go about presenting this, I do not take anything you have just said as applying to me.

anastasios

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

I'm glad you accept this, I thought it was you who said...

Jesus was born the normal way, just like the rest of us.

Perhaps when you bump into Hopko next you can straighten him out for me...

“..Although the Church insists that Mary remains forever a virgin, the only miracle in regard to the Lord's birth is the virginal conception There is no teaching of any other sort of miracle in regard to His birth; certainly no idea that he came forth from His mother without opening her womb.” (Winter Pascha, St. Vladimir 's Seminary Press, p. 1 75)

[Anastasios]

Jesus was born the normal way: unlike the Docetists, who claimed he passed through Mary as a pipe through water, he was born of a woman, the Holy Theotokos, just like all men are born. The Church Fathers as Nik graciously pointed out teach that she had no labour pains and that she remained a virgin in giving birth--a divine miracle for sure, but clearly rooted in practicality: if someone NEEDED to prove that Jesus were born of a Virgin truly, this is the way to prove it.

As I stated before--and my controversialists missed--my concern is that some modern Orthodox apologists sound like Docetists and try to remove Mary from her status as a human being (much like the RC's do with the Immaculate Conception doctrine). I stated four times in my post that "I do not deny that Mary remained intact."

I know everyone thinks I am a raging modernist and at times perhaps I am but my concerns are not "rationalism" and the like as you seem to think, but rather keeping the focus on Jesus Christ and not getting bogged down in absurd arguments that take away from Him.

anastasios

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Anastasios,

I cannot reconcile this, you said, "Jesus was born the normal way"

Then you say, "she remained a virgin in giving birth--a divine miracle for sure"

So how is a miraculous birth the same as being born in the "normal way"?

You said, and Hopko agrees: "The fathers say she felt no labor pains. I believe it. But let's not say she delivered miraculously..."

to paraphrase Nicholas' qoute above: "...Him to pass through the gate without breaking its seals. Hence, the Ever-Virgin remained a virgin ..." - Saint John of Damascus

Again, I cannot reconcile the logic going on here...

And I not trying to bagger you...