Timeline Of When Each Local Western Church Fell From Grace (Great Schism)

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BenjaminMcCraw
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Re: Timeline Of When Each Local Western Church Fell From Grace (Great Schism)

Post by BenjaminMcCraw »

I double checked on the Isle of Man, before the time of the schism and for a while after it had a suffragan bishop under the Bishop of York, so unless we can find any evidence of resistance, we can count the Isle of Man as the same year as England

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Re: Timeline Of When Each Local Western Church Fell From Grace (Great Schism)

Post by SavaBeljovic »

haralampopoulosjc wrote: Sun 10 August 2025 7:41 am

Now the only thing that remains is determining when Scotland and Wales capitulated.

At least according to the history of Reader Vladimir Moss, King Lulach of Scotland, son of King Macbeth (+ 1058), who was assassinated by agents of King Malcolm III who usurped his throne, was the last Orthodox King of Scotland.

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

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Re: Timeline Of When Each Local Western Church Fell From Grace (Great Schism)

Post by haralampopoulosjc »

SavaBeljovic wrote: Sun 10 August 2025 6:22 pm
haralampopoulosjc wrote: Sun 10 August 2025 7:41 am

Now the only thing that remains is determining when Scotland and Wales capitulated.

At least according to the history of Reader Vladimir Moss, King Lulach of Scotland, son of King Macbeth (+ 1058), who was assassinated by agents of King Malcolm III who usurped his throne, was the last Orthodox King of Scotland.

In 1072, with the Harrying of the North completed and his position again secure, William of Normandy came north with an army and a fleet. Malcolm met William at Abernethy and, in the words of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, "became his man" and handed over his eldest son Duncan as a hostage and arranged peace between William and Edgar.

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Re: Timeline Of When Each Local Western Church Fell From Grace (Great Schism)

Post by BenjaminMcCraw »

The fall of Scotland appears to be just as complicated as Hungary but with the added bonus of having a lot of writing about the wars of the time period and very little on religious reformation. So for context, the reigns of the Kings of Scotland during this time period:

King Macbeth of Scotland 1040 - 1057

King Lulach of Scotland 1057 - 1058

King Malcolm III of Scotland 1058 - 1093 (Married Margaret of Wessex 1070)

King Donald III of Scotland 1093 - 1094 Brother of Malcolm III

King Edgar of Scotland 1097 - 1107 fourth son of Malcolm III

King Alexander I of Scotland 1107 - 1124 fifth son of Malcolm III

King David I of Scotland 1124 - 1153 last son of Malcolm III

Queen of Scotland Margaret of Wessex Great niece of Edward the Confessor and wife of the King of Scotland Malcolm III

She instigated religious reform, striving to conform the worship and practices of the Scottish church to those of the continental church. This she did on the inspiration and with the guidance of Lanfranc, a future archbishop of Canterbury. Due to these achievements, she was considered an exemplar of the "just ruler", and moreover influenced her husband and children, especially her youngest son, the future King David I of Scotland

The chroniclers all agree in depicting Queen Margaret as a strong, pure, noble character, who had very great influence over her husband, and through him over Scottish history, especially in its ecclesiastical aspects. Her religion, which was genuine and intense, was of the newest Roman style; and to her are attributed a number of reforms by which the Church in Scotland was considerably modified from the insular and primitive type which down to her time it had exhibited. Among those expressly mentioned are a change in the manner of observing Lent, which thenceforward began as elsewhere on Ash Wednesday and not as previously on the following Monday. Malcolm was largely ignorant of the long-term effects of Margaret's endeavours, not being especially religious himself. He was content for her to pursue her reforms as she desired, which was a testament to the strength of and affection in their marriage

Alexander was the fifth son of Malcolm III and his wife Margaret of Wessex. Alexander was named after Pope Alexander II

In 1250, Pope Innocent IV canonised Margaret in 1250 in recognition of her personal holiness, fidelity to the Roman Catholic Church, work for ecclesiastical reform, and charity.

The brother of King David I of Scotland, Alexander I of Scotland died in 1124, David chose, with the backing of Henry I of England, to take the Kingdom of Alba for himself. David was forced to engage in warfare against his rival and nephew, Máel Coluim mac Alaxandair. Subduing the latter seems to have taken David ten years, a struggle that involved the destruction of Óengus, Mormaer of Moray. David's victory allowed the expansion of control over more distant regions, theoretically part of his Kingdom. During this period too, a marriage was arranged between the son of Matad, Mormaer of Atholl, and the daughter of Haakon Paulsson, Earl of Orkney. The marriage temporarily secured the northern frontier of the kingdom and held out the prospect that a son of one of David's mormaers could gain Orkney and Caithness for the Kingdom of Scotland. Thus, by the time Henry I died on 1 December 1135, David had more of Scotland under his control than ever before. While fighting King Stephen and attempting to dominate northern England in the following years, David was continuing his drive for control of the far north of Scotland. In 1139, his domination of Caithness (then including Sutherland) was confirmed when his cousin, the five-year-old Harald Maddadsson, was given the title of earl and half the lands of the earldom of Orkney, in addition to Scottish Caithness. Throughout the 1140s Caithness and Sutherland were brought back under the Scottish zone of control. Sometime before 1146, David appointed a native Scot called Aindréas to be the first bishop of Caithness, a bishopric which was based at Halkirk, near Thurso, in an area which was ethnically Scandinavian. David soon found himself active and personally present in the north of Scotland because of the death of his cousin William fitz Duncan. William died sometime between 1147 and 1151, putting the huge lordship of Moray back into David's hands.

The term "Davidian Revolution" is used by many scholars to summarise the changes that took place in Scotland during his reign. These included his foundation of burghs and regional markets, implementation of the ideals of Gregorian Reform, foundation of monasteries, Normanisation of the Scottish government, and the introduction of feudalism through immigrant Anglo-Norman and Norman knights, as well as Flemish settlers. David's life as a "reformer" also has a context in the Gaelic-speaking world. This is particularly true in understanding David's enthusiasm for the Gregorian Reform. The latter was a revolutionary movement within the western church spearheaded vigorously in the papacy of Pope Gregory VII which sought renewed spiritual rigour, ecclesiastical discipline and doctrinal obedience to the papacy and its sponsored theologians. The Normans who came to England adopted this ideology, and soon began attacking the Scottish and Irish Gaelic world as spiritually backward – a mindset which even underlay the hagiography of David's mother Margaret, written by her confessor Thurgot at the instigation of the English royal court. Yet up until this period, Gaelic monks (often called Céli Dé) from Ireland and Scotland had been pioneering their own kind of ascetic reform both in Great Britain and in continental Europe, where they founded many of their own monastic houses. Since the end of the 11th century various Gaelic princes had themselves been attempting to accommodate Gregorian reform, examples being Muirchertach Ua Briain, Toirdelbach Ua Conchobair, and Edgar and Alexander I of Scotland. Benjamin Hudson stresses the cultural unity of Scotland and Ireland in this period, and uses the example of cooperation between David I, the Scottish reformer, and his Irish counterpart St Malachy, to show at least partly that David's actions can be understood in the Gaelic context as much as the Anglo-Norman one. Indeed, the Gaelic world had never been closed off from its neighbours in England or continental Europe. Gaelic warriors and holy men had been travelling regularly through England and the continent for centuries. David's predecessor Macbeth (King, 1040–57) had employed Norman mercenaries even before the conquest of England, and English exiles after the conquest fled to the courts of both Máel Coluim III, King of Scotland, and Toirdelbach Ua Briain, High King of Ireland. For the development of the parochial system, David's traditional role as its creator can not be sustained. Scotland already had an ancient system of parish churches dating to the Early Middle Ages, and the kind of system introduced by David's Normanising tendencies can more accurately be seen as mild refashioning, rather than creation; he made the Scottish system as a whole more like that of France and England, but he did not create it. One of the first problems David had to deal with as king was an ecclesiastical dispute with the English Church. The English Church's insistence on subordinating Scottish sees to the archbishops of York or Canterbury had, since his election in 1124, prevented Robert of Scone from being consecrated to the see of St Andrews (Cenn Ríghmonaidh). Since the 11th century, the bishopric of St Andrews likely functioned as a de facto archbishopric. The title of "Archbishop" is accorded in Scottish and Irish sources to Bishop Giric and Bishop Fothad II. The problem was that this archepiscopal status had not been cleared with the papacy, opening the way for English archbishops to claim the overlordship of the whole Scottish church. The man responsible was the new aggressively assertive Archbishop of York, Thurstan. His easiest target was the bishopric of Glasgow, which, being south of the river Forth, was not regarded as part of Scotland nor the jurisdiction of St Andrews. In 1125, Pope Honorius II wrote to John, Bishop of Glasgow, ordering him to submit to the archbishopric of York. David ordered Bishop John of Glasgow to travel to the Apostolic See in order to secure a pallium which would elevate the bishopric of St Andrews to an archbishopric with jurisdiction over Glasgow. Thurstan travelled to Rome, as did the Archbishop of Canterbury, William de Corbeil, and both presumably opposed David's request. David however gained the support of King Henry, and the Archbishop of York agreed to a year's postponement of the issue and to consecrate Robert of Scone without making an issue of subordination. York's claim over bishops north of the Forth was in practice abandoned for the rest of David's reign, although York maintained her more credible claims over Glasgow. In 1151, David again requested a pallium for the Archbishop of St Andrews. Cardinal John Paparo met David at his residence in Carlisle in September 1151. Tantalisingly for David, the Cardinal was on his way to Ireland with four pallia to create four new Irish archbishoprics. When the Cardinal returned to Carlisle, David made the request. In David's plan, the new archdiocese would include all the bishoprics in David's Scottish territory, as well as bishopric of Orkney and the bishopric of the Isles. Unfortunately for David, the Cardinal does not appear to have brought the issue up with the papacy. In the following year, the papacy dealt David another blow by creating the archbishopric of Trondheim, a new Norwegian archbishopric embracing the bishoprics of the Isles and Orkney.

So in summary it appears that Malcolm III was more interested in Kingdoms than the reformation of the Church. The main driving force for the Gregorian Reforms in Scotland was Margaret of Wessex and the influence she had on hers sons. Edgar and Alexander began implementing the ideals of their mother but it was David who finished it, and in large part because of the marriages and wars he engaged in to unify Scotland under his direct rule and not that of the Mormaers. The fall of Scotland can be dated at earliest with the marriage of Margaret of Wessex 1070 and her unopposed introduction of the Gregorian Reforms, and the latest being 1130 at the death of the Mormaer of Moray Óengus and the subjugation of the Moray to the King of Alba.

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Re: Timeline Of When Each Local Western Church Fell From Grace (Great Schism)

Post by BenjaminMcCraw »

Malta is pretty straight forward but the fall of Southern Italy is not, I'm currently working on that.

The Norman invasion of Malta was an attack on the island of Malta, then inhabited predominantly by Muslims, by forces of the Norman County of Sicily led by Roger I in 1091 and subdued the walled city of Mdina. He imposed taxes on the islands, but allowed the Arab governors to continue their rule. In 1127 Roger II abolished the Muslim government, replacing it with Norman officials. Under Norman rule, the Arabic spoken by the Greek Christian islanders for centuries of Muslim domination became Maltese. The attack did not bring about any major political change, but it paved the way for the re-Christianization of Malta, which began in 1127. Over the centuries, the invasion of 1091 was romanticized as the liberation of Christian Malta from Muslim rule, and a number of traditions and legends arose from it, such as the unlikely claim that Count Roger gave his colours red and white to the Maltese as their national colours.

I think we can say Wales fell on 1120 at the consecration of David the Scot as Bishop of Bangor.

Norman invasion of Wales was between 1067–1094. Hervey le Breton was ordained as bishop of Bangor in 1092 by Thomas of Bayeux archbishop of York and chaplain of William the Conqueror. He was evicted out of his diocese during the Welsh rebellion and not permitted to return. The Welsh rebellion was between 1094–1168. The main instigator of the rebellion was King Gruffudd ap Cynan who reigned between 1081–1137. David the Scot was elected Bishop of Bangor, at the instigation of King Gruffudd ap Cynan of Gwynedd, in 1120. The previous bishop, Hervé, had been expelled from his see by the Welsh, and deadlock between Gruffudd and the king of England concerning the choice of a new bishop had resulted in the see being vacant for around twenty years. Gruffudd threatened to get the new Bishop consecrated in Ireland, but eventually King Henry I of England agreed to the appointment of David to the see on condition that he accepted the supremacy of Canterbury. David was consecrated by Ralph, Archbishop of Canterbury on 4 April 1120 at Westminster. As bishop, he took part in several English synods, and probably died in 1139, since his successor was then consecrated.

The Faroe Islands fell together with Norway

Diocese of the Faroe Islands was founded in 1076. The bishops of the Faroe Islands were usually chosen from the canons of the Diocese of Bergen and were originally suffragans of the Archdiocese of Hamburg-Bremen. The first missionary bishop to the Faroe Islands was Bernard the Saxon. The diocese was granted to Lund in 1104. The Diocese of Bergen was founded in 1068 at Selje by King Olaf III son of King Harald Hardrada. Bernard the Saxon was the first bishop of Selje, but he later removed to the newly founded city of Bergen, where he died as its first bishop about 1090. The diocese was originally a suffragan of the archdiocese of Hamburg-Bremen, from 1104 on of that of Lund.

It seems Greenland, Pomerania, and the Baltics were Christianized by the Papists after the schism.

The first bishop of Greenland was Arnaldur of Garðar ordained by the Archbishop of Lund in 1124. He arrived in Greenland in 1126

Medieval Pomerania was converted from Slavic paganism to Christianity under Bolesław III Wrymouth, by bishop Otto of Bamberg in 1124 and 1128 (Duchy of Pomerania), and in 1168 by Absalon (Principality of Rügen).
Earlier attempts at Christianization, undertaken since the 10th century, failed or were short-lived.

The Northern Crusades or Baltic Crusades were Christianization campaigns undertaken by Catholic Christian military orders and kingdoms, primarily against the pagan Baltic, Finnic, and West Slavic peoples around the southern and eastern shores of the Baltic Sea. At the outset of the northern crusades, Christian monarchs across northern Europe commissioned forays into territories that comprise modern-day Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Russia. The indigenous populations of Pagans suffered forced baptisms and the ravages of military occupation. Spearheading, but by no means monopolizing these incursions, the ascendant Teutonic Order profited immensely from the crusades, as did German merchants who fanned out along trading routes traversing the Baltic frontier. The official starting point for the Northern Crusades was Pope Celestine III's call in 1195, but the Catholic kingdoms of Scandinavia, Poland, and the Holy Roman Empire had begun moving to subjugate their pagan neighbors even earlier during the Christianization of Pomerania. The non-Christian people who were objects of the campaigns at various dates included:

The Polabian Wends, Sorbs, and Obotrites between the Elbe and Oder rivers (by the Saxons, Danes, and Poles, beginning with the Wendish Crusade in 1147)

The Finns proper (1150s in the First Crusade by the Swedes; by the Danes in 1191 and 1202; Tavastia in 1249 in the Second Crusade by the Swedes; and Karelia in 1293 in the Third Crusade by the Swedes)

Livonians, Latgallians, Selonians, and Estonians (by the Germans and Danes, 1193–1227).
Semigallians and Curonians (1219–1290).

Old Prussians. (1147–1274)

Lithuanians and Samogitians (by the Germans 1236–1422)

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Re: Timeline Of When Each Local Western Church Fell From Grace (Great Schism)

Post by BenjaminMcCraw »

SavaBeljovic wrote: Sun 10 August 2025 6:22 pm

At least according to the history of Reader Vladimir Moss, King Lulach of Scotland, son of King Macbeth (+ 1058), who was assassinated by agents of King Malcolm III who usurped his throne, was the last Orthodox King of Scotland.

I really enjoy the works of Vladimir Moss. I'm upset that his website is currently gutted. You have to use the wayback to read almost anything of his. I think the question he was answering was a little different then the one we have been tackling. A list of the last holy royals or at least truly pious royals of the west would be a great list maybe we could tackle next and here I think Vladimir Moss would be correct.

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Re: Timeline Of When Each Local Western Church Fell From Grace (Great Schism)

Post by haralampopoulosjc »

Image

New New Timeline:

  • England (1066, Battle of Hastings)

  • Scotland (1072, King Malcolm III of Scotland submits to William of Normandy at Abernethy)

  • Spain (1080, Council of Burgos)

  • Iceland (1083, Bishop Gizurr returns to Iceland after being consecrated a bishop on the continent by the Hildebrandian archbishop of Magdeburg, Hartwig of Spanheim )

  • Poland (1096, Expulsion of the Tyniec monks)

  • Bohemia (1096, Expulsion of the monks of Sázava Monastery)

  • Italy (1100, Death of Pope Saint Clement III AKA Wibert of Ravenna)

  • France (1104, Philip I of France submits to Pope Paschal II)

  • Sweden (1104, Creation of the Archdiocese of Lund)

  • Norway (1104, Creation of the Archdiocese of Lund)

  • Denmark (1104, Creation of the Archdiocese of Lund)

  • Hungary (1106, King Coloman of Hungary sent envoys to the Council of Guastalla, which had been convoked by Pope Paschal II. In October 1106, the envoys solemnly informed the pope of their king's renunciation of his royal prerogative to appoint the prelates of his realms)

  • Germany (1111, Holy Roman Emperor Henry V submits to Pope Paschal II, who performs his coronation)

  • Ireland (1111, Synod of Ráth Breasail, convened by the papal legate, Gille, Bishop of Limerick. The synod was attended by no fewer than fifty bishops, three hundred priests and three thousand laymen, including King Murtough O'Brien. The synod's deliberations were prompted by the Gregorian Reform and guided by the relatively new powers of the Papacy as defined in the Dictatus papae and Libertas ecclesiae)

  • Wales (1120, consecration of David the Scot as Bishop of Bangor, by Ralph, Archbishop of Canterbury at Westminster)

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