Matrona of Moscow: Distraction from the REAL Saints

[Lemon Schist]

I personally believe the OCA wants to glorify any halfway pious person (like Olga Mikhail) who lived in America, but the Orthodox Church does not just glorify pious people, we glorify Holy (Agios) people.

What about confessors and martyrs? They weren't necessarily holy up to the point that they declared their belief in Christ and accepted death. We glorify them, which I don't have a problem with at all. Joint pointing it out and trying to understand. How are you defining "holy" in this context?

[SavaBeljovic]

I personally believe the OCA wants to glorify any halfway pious person (like Olga Mikhail) who lived in America, but the Orthodox Church does not just glorify pious people, we glorify Holy (Agios) people.

What about confessors and martyrs? They weren't necessarily holy up to the point that they declared their belief in Christ and accepted death. We glorify them, which I don't have a problem with at all. Joint pointing it out and trying to understand. How are you defining "holy" in this context?

Granted many Martyrs prior to their Martyrdom (Martyrios in Greek literally means "witness", like a witness bearing testimony in court) weren't Holy (Saintly) people. The Ancient Canons of the Church, specifically the Synod of Laodicea specifically references the veneration of Martyrs and implies Martyrs can be venerated the very same hour they are killed.

It is the opinion of several Saints (including St. Nikodemos the Hagiorite and St. Nikodim of Dalmatia-Istria) that Martyrs do not need to be glorified. However the Synod of Laodicea also mentions that the "Martyrdom" of heretics is not a Martyrdom, but specifically calls it a suicide. Same with their asceticism.

St. Seraphim of Sarov in his conversation with N.A. Motovilov says: "...the goal of the Christian life isn't simply to avoid sin, but to acquire the Holy Spirit..." The Saints were Holy through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that came through their asceticism, spiritual works, sufferings etc.

I saw your second post after I made my first (my apologies) where you specifically mentioned Saints who were not well liked in their lifetime. For us in True Orthodoxy this is a common reality even to this day, as there are still people who while they were alive did not like St. John Maximovitch, St. Philaret, St. Jose Munoz Cortes and others. But we cannot accept people like Paisios, Porphyrios, Iakovos or these other New Calendarist/Sergianist "Saints" because they remained in communion with heretics, which is an automatic disqualifier for Holiness.

St. John Chrysostom says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the sin that cannot be forgiven, is heresy and schism. St. John Maximovitch writes that not even the baptism of blood (Martyrdom) can wash away heresy or schism. The Roman Catholics claim to have "Saints" (like Padre Pio) who worked miracles, or incorrupt relics. But we know the Salvific Grace and True Gifts of the Holy Spirit (the latter of which demons can replicate like clairvoyance) only abides in the Orthodox Church, which is held in the Confession of the True Faith as St. Maximos the Confessor states.

post scriptum: Patriarch Dositheus II in his Confession (Synod of Jerusalem 1672) also defines the difference between piety and Sainthood.

[Barbara]

Great comments

Quick question, yes I too had noticed the date on the calendar for Sister [do we recognize her as a valid nun ??] Maria Skobtsova. I normally would not even SEE it on the list. But this year her name jumped out, probably for this thread !

George Skobtsova is mentioned also, as having reposed in 1944
Is that her : father ? brother ?

2nd, I like very much what Fr Joseph said about the real cause of Maria Skobtsova's death.

I have researched World War II resistance movements quite a bit.
The truth is that MANY who were proclaimed killed in some horrific way
by the Germans were really NOT. They were more likely to have died of TYPHUS in the camps than anything else

I know a few examples where the deceased person was proclaimed a secular martyr to drum up sympathy amongst the war-torn Western masses.
"Carve Her Name with Pride" was a British movie made to glorify Violette Szabo, who served in SOE in France. Thus to justify the participation in World War II to a war-weary English public who might well have wondered, "Was it WORTH IT ? Why did we DO THAT ?"

Another was Noor Inayat Khan, also in the SOE [Special Operations Excecutive, a bland name to camouflage a sabotage group sent in by the British to many European countries, even I think as far away as Malaysia] in France.
There is NO evidence for them and many others having been put to death by the Germans. It was vastly more likely that they and many others died of disease, such as TB, which like typhus, was rampant in those camps. No one ever talks about THAT side of things, however.

So Fr Joseph is 100% right about Maria Skobtsova.

[Lemon Schist]

Patriarch Dositheus II in his Confession (Synod of Jerusalem 1672)

This was a fascinating read, thanks for referencing it. I've spent a lot of time reading spiritual books, but not much on the synodal declarations or the history of the church beyond the first few centuries. I've read so many of Paisios' books, that it is difficult for me to let go of the idea of him not being a saint, however as they say even the devil can quote scripture and there are plenty of Mega church pastors who are millionaires from book sales.

Off-topic but I was surprised by his decree regarding reading scripture.

[Lemon Schist]

The "church" did not accept these people as saints, because the World Orthodox are not a part of the Church. The Ecumenical Patriarch who glorified these people is not a valid authority for glorification.

The EP has ulterior motives for glorifying these people, as they're desperate for "saints" to prove their validity. Besides a few of the ones who are well known, they've canonized over a dozen or so obscure figures who maybe showed some piety during their lives, but didn't have any sort of cultus of veneration surrounding them.

Yes, but I had no clue up until less than a month ago that WO wasn't the church and neither do most people. My icon of Matrona was given to me by a Ukrainian Matushka(?) of an Ukrainian archpriest who was born in Canada and immigrated to US. An icon of Matrona is in our church. Even if people realize the heresy of ecumenism, they aren't necessarily going to find out or question the validity of these canonizations. I have the time to go down these rabbit holes but most people don't.

[Lemon Schist]

Other than moving closer to a TO parish, I don't know what the intermediary steps are.

[Barbara]

Lemon Schist, Wonderful that you are able to study and read - especially HERE on E.C., where there is actually a fountain of wisdom if you check bac thru old threads too.

Thank you for having that willpower to struggle thru all this uncomfortable learning stage.

It's hard to hear things questioned that you always believed were fine.

Why don't you donate your "Matronushka 'icon'" to a parish of your choice, so to as to get it out of the house ? I view these false saints as actually poisonous to the atmosphere where one resides or works.
They most likely bring discordancy rather than any semblance of holiness.
Your user name suggests fresh, invigorating sunshine, so you don't want any pollution from false saints to cloud your days !

We're here to help, just ask for ideas or explanations about some of these difficult topics. There are threads also on other MP people like Bishop Luke of Simferopol which explain why, from our point of view, he is NO Saint !

For a start.