The Saint Augustine vs HTM Thread (was Discord Spillover)

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Thomas_Deretich
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Re: Discord Spillover Was "The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church"

Post by Thomas_Deretich »

Augustine wrote several books explaining in detail his controversial views in the final nine years (especially the final four years) of his life. In these books, he wrote several passages that deviated greatly from the balanced way that the great Orthodox Fathers and Teachers (before and after Augustine) dealt with the same doctrines. In these extreme and unbalanced passages, Augustine seemed to teach that: (1) All human beings of all time were present “in” Adam when he sinned and “were” Adam when he sinned. (2) All human beings (men, women, and children) deserve to spend eternity in hell because we are all guilty of the sin that we committed when we all "were" Adam. (3) God arbitrarily chooses to give grace to a select few human beings (whether they desire it or not) and only the chosen can be saved. (4) God abandons all the rest of humanity, the majority (even those who desire to be saved). They have no chance at salvation. (5) God does not will that all men be saved. Augustine explains away the teaching of Scripture that God “wills all men to be saved,” by claiming that it only means the predestined, who happen to come from all kinds of backgrounds. (6) God “predestinates” (determines beforehand), in an inscrutable (inexplicable, essentially arbitrary) way that only a select few individuals will be saved.

Some of Augustine’s more extreme and unbalanced passages include the following:

[]“we all were in that one man [Adam], since all of us were that one man who fell into sin through the woman” (Augustine, City of God 13.4).
[*]“[a] class of men that is predestinated to destruction” (Augustine, Man’s Perfection in Righteousness 13)
[]“to those whom He has predestinated to eternal death, He is also the most righteous awarder of punishment” (Augustine, The Soul and Its Origin 16)
[*]“Of the number of the elect and predestined, even those who have led the worst kind of life are led to repentance through the goodness of God.... The other mortals ... have been made vessels of wrath .... He leads none of them to the wholesome and spiritual repentance by which a man in Christ is reconciled to God .... all men [are] of the same mass of perdition and condemnation .... God through his merciful goodness leads some of them to repentance, and according to His judgment does not lead others” (Augustine, Against Julian 1.4.14).
[*]“He ‘wills all men to be saved’ [1 Tim 2:4] is said so that all the predestined may be understood by it, because every kind of man is among them” (Augustine, Admonition and Grace 44).

In contrast to Augustine's extreme few of the fall, which comes close to Calvinistic "total depravity," the Orthodox Fathers take a more balanced approach. “[W]e rejected/lost the divine likeness, but we did not destroy the image/icon [τὸ καθ’ ὁμοίωσιν εἶναι θείαν ἀποβαλόντες, τὸ κατ’ εἰκόνα οὐκ ἀπωλέσαμεν] {Gr.P.Chap. 39[PG.150:1148/Γ.Π.Σ.5:56–57/Sinkewicz1988:126–127]}. Many Fathers identify the "icon of God" (the imago Dei) in humanity specifically in our rationality and conscience which can choose to repent and seek God's grace. There is no arbitrary and irresistible "election" of only a select few, as in Calvinism and literal Augustinianism. There is no arbitrary and irresistible predestination to sin, death, and damnation as in Calvinism and literal Augustinianism.

The Byzantine Church did not venerate Augustine liturgically and his writings started to be read in the Slavic and Greek East much later, under heavy Western influence over the Eastern Churches (Peter Galadza, “The Liturgical Commemoration of Augustine in the Orthodox Church: An Ambiguous Lex Orandi for an Ambiguous Lex Credendi,” St Vladimir’s Theological Quarterly 52.1 [2008]: 111–130, https://www.academia.edu/4835529/_The_L ... card=title; Karla Pollmann and Willemien Otten, eds., The Oxford Guide to the Historical Reception of Augustine [Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2013]).It is a well-documented fact that Bishop Augustine of Hippo became very extreme and stubborn in his final four years, when he wrote works like On Correction and Grace (De correptione et gratia, AD 426) and Unfinished Work Against Julian (Contra Julianum opus imperfectum, AD 428–430). Augustine essentially denies the clear teaching of Saint Paul (1 Tim. 2:4) and several later synods that God desires all human beings to be saved. Augustine unpatristically reinterpreted “all men” to mean merely people from “all kinds” of tribes, languages, stations in life, etc. Augustine (De correptione et gratia 44), writes, “He ‘wills all men to be saved’ [1 Tim. 2:4] is said so that all the predestined may be understood by it, because every kind of man is among them.” Augustine was rebuked, especially by the Orthodox monastics of Gaul, for this false, unpatristic interpretation. But he remained stubbornly in error until his repose. In another section of the same unfortunate treatise (De correptione et gratia 14), Augustine seems to come very close to the great Calvinist error of “irresistible grace” (Augustine referring to gratia as “indeclinabiliter et insuperabiliter,” rather than the later “gratia irresistibilis”), although some scholars do not interpret Augustine’s words at face value here and attempt to minimize the clear similarity to the error of “irresistible grace.” There are numerous other passages in which Augustine seems to affirm embryonic versions of four of the five Calvinist TULIP errors: total depravity (lack of free will), unconditional (arbitrary) election, irresistible (coercive) grace, and perseverance of the saints (coercive grace denying human free will).

A strict Augustinian notion of double predestination (with arbitrary predestination to damnation) was rejected by numerous synods of bishops in the West: Synod of Arles (AD 473; Synodal Statement written by Saint Faustus of Riez), Synod of Lyon (circa AD 474), Second Synod of Orange (begun July 3, AD 529, under the presidency of Archbishop Caesarius of Arles), Synod of Mainz (AD 848), [First] Synod of Quiercy (AD 849), [Second] Synod of Quiercy (May, AD 853, under the presidency of Archbishop Hincmar of Reims), Synod of Valence (January 8, AD 855, presided over by Bishop Remegius of Lyon), Synod of Langres (AD 859), and Synod of Toul (AD 860). None of these synods condemned Augustine by name, and some were even influenced by his writings, but they all rejected some of his extreme statements on predestination.

Bishop Augustine of Hippo Regius can be a hindrance to finding the patristic consensus on soteriology. Augustine did not retract his proto-Calvinist errors in his book entitled Retractationes (meaning “reviews,” more than “retractions”), but stubbornly doubled down on them in his final two years, when he was writing Contra Julianum opus imperfectum, his enormously long and extreme and unfinished final work. He rebuffed the repeated warnings of the Orthodox monastics of Gaul. Pope Vigilius later took a one-sided position against these critics. Vigilius was unfair to the Orthodox monastics of Gaul. The pope was seeking to stamp out discussion of Augustine’s obvious one-sidedness. Vigilius was seeking to increase blind obedience to the Roman see.

The consensus of the Fathers is what we should seek to uphold, over and above the idiosyncrasies of any one ecclesiastical writer. The consensus of the Fathers on these soteriological issues is represented with more balance by Saints Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, John Cassian, and the holy (Augustine-critical) bishops and monks of Gaul, not by Augustine. The western synods (mentioned above) do not uphold Augustine’s distorted soteriological language. Yes, Saints Photius and Nicodemus were so scandalized by some of Augustine’s writings that they put forward their personal speculations that there “must” have been interpolations. There is absolutely no evidence of any relevant interpolations that any Eastern or Western scholar has ever found in Augustine’s corpus. I looked carefully at the Fifth Synod (Greek, English, Latin): Augustine is not proclaimed a saint or Universal Teacher of pure Orthodoxy, despite what Saint Justinian may have written or what the Latin (not the Greek) manuscripts of the synodal Sentence may say.

The tradition of the Orthodox Churches of the East was not to venerate Augustine liturgically even though he was equally and possibly more famous and influential than Saint Leo the Great and Saint Gregory the Great. The fact that Saints Patrick, Vincent, and others were not venerated in the East is because they were not well known. Augustine was not venerated in the East due to God’s providence, not lack of knowledge about his existence. The primary sources, the expert scholarship, and the dominant liturgical tradition of the Orthodox Church does not uphold Augustine’s one-sided approach to soteriology or his liturgical veneration in the East. We can call him “holy” as we sometimes do Theophilus of Alexandria or Theodoret of Cyrrhus (who both made great errors) or any Orthodox bishop (“Holy Master, bless”) or any Orthodox priest (“Holy Father, bless”), but it is best to maintain tradition and not venerate Augustine of Hippo Regius with liturgical hymns in the Menaion as a teacher of pure Orthodoxy. He was not pure, but made grievous errors, as is widely admitted, including even by Father Seraphim Rose, Metropolitan Emeritus Chrysostomos of Etna, Vladimir Moss, and other defenders of veneration. I am advocating nothing innovative at all here, simply the tradition of the Orthodox Church that 1) recognizes serious errors in Augustine’s writings and (2) does not venerate him liturgically.

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Re: Discord Spillover Was "The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church"

Post by Thomas_Deretich »

Please forgive the repetition (above and especially below), but more needs to be said concerning exaggerations about Augustine and the Fifth Ecumenical Synod. More needs to be said about the numerous synods that rejected the errors of Augustinianism.

Orthodox Church councils have frequently found it necessary to condemn doctrines that have some basis in Augustine’s writings. The doctrines that were condemned may have been expansions of what Augustine wrote, and Augustine may never have been mentioned, nevertheless, the Church has deemed it necessary numerous times through history to issue these condemnations of un-Orthodox doctrines that were developed on the basis of deviant tendencies and passages in Augustine’s writings. Augustine’s false view of heretical sacraments was rejected both before and after his time, including by Saint Cyprian and the Council of Carthage, the Second Ecumenical Council (381), and the Fifth-Sixth Council (AD 690, including the Apostolic Canons). Extreme notions of predestinarianism (including double predestination) were condemned at numerous western councils, such the councils of Quiersy (AD 853; Denzinger 2012: §621–624), Valence III (AD 855; Denzinger 2012: §625–633), Langress, Toul, and Thuzey. False notions of the Filioque (“and from the Son”) were condemned by councils in AD 880, 1054, and 1285. False notions of created grace were condemned by councils in AD 1341, 1347, 1351, 1352, and 1368; by the Synodicon of Orthodoxy (final Byzantine text of 1352); and by the Athonite Tome of 1341 and the Athonite Confession of 1368. These are the Orthodox synodal consensus statements that are relevant to the errors of Augustinianism. The Fifth Ecumenical Synod did not examine the errors of Augustinianism.

Augustine was mentioned positively by Latin bishops and by Emperor Justinian in the proceedings the Fifth Ecumenical Council, but Augustine was not proclaimed to be a saint in the council’s consensus decrees. Augustine was cited in a letter associated with the council in support of the Orthodox teaching that a priest or bishop who reposed within the Orthodox Church could be condemned a century or more after his death if false teachings are found in his writings. The Fifth Ecumenical Council decided to go beyond what the Fourth Ecumenical Council had done (provisionally) concerning Bishop Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393–458). The Fourth Council admitted Theodoret as a member of the council (and did not condemn him as some bishops advocated). Theodoret was even influential at the Fourth Council, but certain of his writings were condemned over a century later by the Fifth Council. The priest Origen (184–253) was also formally condemned (as a man, in addition to his heretical writings) by the Fifth Council, three centuries after his death within the Church. Augustine was cited in support of these posthumous condemnations in a letter associated with the Fifth Council (a letter that the Church has not received, but survives in Latin only; the Greek version is much shorter). In that Latin letter, Augustine was given honor as a bishop who reposed within the Church and who was influential ("resplendent"), especially in Africa. It is a serious distortion of the facts to claim that the Fifth Council decreed that Augustine should be venerated liturgically as a saint. Augustine is not even mentioned in the final decrees of the Fifth Council (against Origin and the Three Chapters) accepted by the Orthodox Church.
**

Augustine was cited positively as a bishop of the Church by some saints and by some bishops at the Fifth Ecumenical Council. However, as will be shown below, it would be false to assert that Augustine was proclaimed a Saint, Church Father, Theologian, and Universal Teacher by the Orthodox Church as a whole at the Fifth Council. There was no official decision anything like that. In fact, Augustine was cited at the Fifth Council in support of the Orthodox teaching that a church writer who reposed within the Church may be condemned, even centuries later, if the Church makes the judgment that such a condemnation is necessary to protect the faithful. Indeed, at some future date, bishops of the Orthodox Church could condemn certain passages in Augustine’s writings. Several Orthodox councils have already condemned doctrines that may seem to appear in embryonic form in some writings of Augustine, although neither he nor his writings were condemned by name. It is relevant here that the Fourth Ecumenical Council chose not to condemn Bishop Thedoret of Cyrrhus (and he even had influence at that council) whereas one hundred years later, after further examination in the Church, the Fifth Ecumenical Council did condemn some of Theodoret’s writings. Some modern Orthodox writers place Theodoret and Augustine in the same category: bishops who wrote some very good things and some very bad things. In order to reflect that, these writers call Augustine, Theodoret, and others (like Jerome) “Blessed” but not “Saint.” The main point is that even if Augustine is honored as a bishop of the Orthodox Church, there always needs to be a recognition that he made significant errors and that he is not on the level of the Three Great Hierarchs and Universal Teachers or the Three Pillars of Orthodoxy. None of the Seven Ecumenical Synods recognize any canon, letter, or decretal letter from Augustine, as the synods do from several individual Holy Fathers. Augustine is not mentioned as a Church Father in the Synodicon of Orthodoxy. Today, Orthodox Christians can disagree on the exact status of Augustine in the Church — as some have disagreed for fifteen centuries. At the same time there should be agreement to follow the dogmatic consensus of the Church and to reject all passages from Augustine that deviate from that dogmatic consensus. There is no way to teach church history in depth, especially about the Western schism, without going into detail on Augustine's aggressions against the ancient Christian consensus on God's love and human free ill, and other teachings.
**

As Orthodox Christians, we follow the consensus of the dogmatic teachings of the saints; we do not necessarily follow the personal opinions of individual saints or church writers. We certainly do not follow a saint or church writer when he departs from the dogmatic consensus of the saints. It is true that, according to the Latin (but not the Greek) records of the proceedings of the Fifth Ecumenical Council, the name of Augustine was mentioned positively by some bishops in these proceedings. However, it would be absolutely false to claim that the Orthodox Church proclaimed Augustine to be a Universal Teacher of the Orthodox Church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council. The position of Bishop Augustine of Hippo within the Orthodox Church can be compared to two other ancient bishops who made serious errors: Archbishop Theophilus of Alexandria and Bishop Theodoret of Cyrrhus. Archbishop Theophilus of Alexandria is sometimes called a “Holy Father” because he reposed as a bishop of the Orthodox Church and because he wrote canons (rules) that have been accepted by the Orthodox Church. At the same time, he is depicted in the lives of the saints as a sinful person for the way he opposed Saint John Chrysostom. In one (general) sense, all bishops of the Orthodox Church can be called “Holy Father” or “Holy Master.” But this does not mean that they are (specifically) venerated with liturgical hymns as a “Church Father” or “Universal Teacher” or “Pillar of Orthodoxy” or “Theologian.” Bishop Augustine of Hippo may also be compared to Bishop Theodoret of Cyrrhus. The Fourth Ecumenical Council chose not to condemn Bishop Theodoret of Cyrrhus and he even had some influence on the council. But, 102 years later, after more detailed examination, the Fifth Ecumenical Council chose specifically to condemn the exaggerated writings of Theodoret against Saint Cyril of Alexandria. At the Fifth Ecumenical Council, Bishop Augustine of Hippo was cited in support of the Orthodox teaching that a council of bishops can condemn a church writer’s errors a century or more after that person reposed (in good standing) within the Church. For the last couple of modern centuries, some Orthodox writers specifically avoid referring to Theodoret and Augustine as “Saint,” but, because they were bishops and writers within the Orthodox Church who made significant errors, these modern Orthodox writers refer to them only as “Blessed.” Other Orthodox writers simply refer to Augustine as the Orthodox Church’s Bishop of Hippo Regius from A.D. 395 to 430. According to the conviction of these writers, to call Augustine “saint” without qualification has the danger of leading the faithful into error. Some of the exaggerated Greek and Slavonic hymns written to Augustine (quoted in Seraphim Rose; Peter Galadza; etc.) in modern times are clearly misleading and harmful to the unsuspecting lay believer, who may be deceived into believing that Augustine is an authoritative and “pure” Teacher of right doctrine in the Orthodox Church. Those Greek and Slavonic hymns (never in Menaia until after 1950) are absolutely scandalous when they falsely state that Augustine was a great teacher of pure Orthodox doctrine. The old Latin synods that condemned literalistic versions of several of Augustine's teachings and the numerous Orthodox synods against Calvinism and Cyril Lukaris (synods that rejected Augustinian predestinarianism) need to be given the respect they deserve. After studying these Western and Eastern Orthodox synods' decrees and after finding similar statements (to what the synods rejected) in Augustine, it should become impossible to chant these hymns to Augustine as a "pure" teacher. Augustine, in a "great sacrilege," denied the Orthodox Christian teaching on God's love and grace as it is taught in the New Testament and the Holy Fathers and Teachers of the Church. Augustine arrogantly rejected the saintly monastics who warned him. He reposed when stubbornly writing a massive book stating he would not budge from his error. Even those today who push the novelty of liturgical veneration of Augustine---such as Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Etna and Father Seraphim of Platina and Vladimir Moss---are forced by the facts to admit great distortions (even sacrilege) by Augustine in the way he undermines God's love and grace. If we take God's grace and revelation seriously, those false hymns should not be chanted about Augustine. Follow tradition. Leave him out of calendars and Menaia. Warn the faithful. Do not teach the faithful, falsely, that Augustine was a teacher of "pure" Christian truth.

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Re: Discord Spillover Was "The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church"

Post by Suaidan »

Thomas_Deretich wrote: Tue 10 September 2024 6:47 pm

Augustine wrote several books explaining in detail his controversial views in the final nine years (especially the final four years) of his life. In these books, he wrote several passages that deviated greatly from the balanced way that the great Orthodox Fathers and Teachers (before and after Augustine) dealt with the same doctrines. In these extreme and unbalanced passages, Augustine seemed to teach that: (1) All human beings of all time were present “in” Adam when he sinned and “were” Adam when he sinned. (2) All human beings (men, women, and children) deserve to spend eternity in hell because we are all guilty of the sin that we committed when we all "were" Adam. (3) God arbitrarily chooses to give grace to a select few human beings (whether they desire it or not) and only the chosen can be saved. (4) God abandons all the rest of humanity, the majority (even those who desire to be saved). They have no chance at salvation. (5) God does not will that all men be saved. Augustine explains away the teaching of Scripture that God “wills all men to be saved,” by claiming that it only means the predestined, who happen to come from all kinds of backgrounds. (6) God “predestinates” (determines beforehand), in an inscrutable (inexplicable, essentially arbitrary) way that only a select few individuals will be saved.

Some of Augustine’s more extreme and unbalanced passages include the following:

[]“we all were in that one man [Adam], since all of us were that one man who fell into sin through the woman” (Augustine, City of God 13.4).
[*]“[a] class of men that is predestinated to destruction” (Augustine, Man’s Perfection in Righteousness 13)
[]“to those whom He has predestinated to eternal death, He is also the most righteous awarder of punishment” (Augustine, The Soul and Its Origin 16)
[*]“Of the number of the elect and predestined, even those who have led the worst kind of life are led to repentance through the goodness of God.... The other mortals ... have been made vessels of wrath .... He leads none of them to the wholesome and spiritual repentance by which a man in Christ is reconciled to God .... all men [are] of the same mass of perdition and condemnation .... God through his merciful goodness leads some of them to repentance, and according to His judgment does not lead others” (Augustine, Against Julian 1.4.14).
[*]“He ‘wills all men to be saved’ [1 Tim 2:4] is said so that all the predestined may be understood by it, because every kind of man is among them” (Augustine, Admonition and Grace 44).

In contrast to Augustine's extreme few of the fall, which comes close to Calvinistic "total depravity," the Orthodox Fathers take a more balanced approach. “[W]e rejected/lost the divine likeness, but we did not destroy the image/icon [τὸ καθ’ ὁμοίωσιν εἶναι θείαν ἀποβαλόντες, τὸ κατ’ εἰκόνα οὐκ ἀπωλέσαμεν] {Gr.P.Chap. 39[PG.150:1148/Γ.Π.Σ.5:56–57/Sinkewicz1988:126–127]}. Many Fathers identify the "icon of God" (the imago Dei) in humanity specifically in our rationality and conscience which can choose to repent and seek God's grace. There is no arbitrary and irresistible "election" of only a select few, as in Calvinism and literal Augustinianism. There is no arbitrary and irresistible predestination to sin, death, and damnation as in Calvinism and literal Augustinianism.

The Byzantine Church did not venerate Augustine liturgically and his writings started to be read in the Slavic and Greek East much later, under heavy Western influence over the Eastern Churches (Peter Galadza, “The Liturgical Commemoration of Augustine in the Orthodox Church: An Ambiguous Lex Orandi for an Ambiguous Lex Credendi,” St Vladimir’s Theological Quarterly 52.1 [2008]: 111–130, https://www.academia.edu/4835529/_The_L ... card=title; Karla Pollmann and Willemien Otten, eds., The Oxford Guide to the Historical Reception of Augustine [Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2013]).It is a well-documented fact that Bishop Augustine of Hippo became very extreme and stubborn in his final four years, when he wrote works like On Correction and Grace (De correptione et gratia, AD 426) and Unfinished Work Against Julian (Contra Julianum opus imperfectum, AD 428–430). Augustine essentially denies the clear teaching of Saint Paul (1 Tim. 2:4) and several later synods that God desires all human beings to be saved. Augustine unpatristically reinterpreted “all men” to mean merely people from “all kinds” of tribes, languages, stations in life, etc. Augustine (De correptione et gratia 44), writes, “He ‘wills all men to be saved’ [1 Tim. 2:4] is said so that all the predestined may be understood by it, because every kind of man is among them.” Augustine was rebuked, especially by the Orthodox monastics of Gaul, for this false, unpatristic interpretation. But he remained stubbornly in error until his repose. In another section of the same unfortunate treatise (De correptione et gratia 14), Augustine seems to come very close to the great Calvinist error of “irresistible grace” (Augustine referring to gratia as “indeclinabiliter et insuperabiliter,” rather than the later “gratia irresistibilis”), although some scholars do not interpret Augustine’s words at face value here and attempt to minimize the clear similarity to the error of “irresistible grace.” There are numerous other passages in which Augustine seems to affirm embryonic versions of four of the five Calvinist TULIP errors: total depravity (lack of free will), unconditional (arbitrary) election, irresistible (coercive) grace, and perseverance of the saints (coercive grace denying human free will).

A strict Augustinian notion of double predestination (with arbitrary predestination to damnation) was rejected by numerous synods of bishops in the West: Synod of Arles (AD 473; Synodal Statement written by Saint Faustus of Riez), Synod of Lyon (circa AD 474), Second Synod of Orange (begun July 3, AD 529, under the presidency of Archbishop Caesarius of Arles), Synod of Mainz (AD 848), [First] Synod of Quiercy (AD 849), [Second] Synod of Quiercy (May, AD 853, under the presidency of Archbishop Hincmar of Reims), Synod of Valence (January 8, AD 855, presided over by Bishop Remegius of Lyon), Synod of Langres (AD 859), and Synod of Toul (AD 860). None of these synods condemned Augustine by name, and some were even influenced by his writings, but they all rejected some of his extreme statements on predestination.

Bishop Augustine of Hippo Regius can be a hindrance to finding the patristic consensus on soteriology. Augustine did not retract his proto-Calvinist errors in his book entitled Retractationes (meaning “reviews,” more than “retractions”), but stubbornly doubled down on them in his final two years, when he was writing Contra Julianum opus imperfectum, his enormously long and extreme and unfinished final work. He rebuffed the repeated warnings of the Orthodox monastics of Gaul. Pope Vigilius later took a one-sided position against these critics. Vigilius was unfair to the Orthodox monastics of Gaul. The pope was seeking to stamp out discussion of Augustine’s obvious one-sidedness. Vigilius was seeking to increase blind obedience to the Roman see.

The consensus of the Fathers is what we should seek to uphold, over and above the idiosyncrasies of any one ecclesiastical writer. The consensus of the Fathers on these soteriological issues is represented with more balance by Saints Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, John Cassian, and the holy (Augustine-critical) bishops and monks of Gaul, not by Augustine. The western synods (mentioned above) do not uphold Augustine’s distorted soteriological language. Yes, Saints Photius and Nicodemus were so scandalized by some of Augustine’s writings that they put forward their personal speculations that there “must” have been interpolations. There is absolutely no evidence of any relevant interpolations that any Eastern or Western scholar has ever found in Augustine’s corpus. I looked carefully at the Fifth Synod (Greek, English, Latin): Augustine is not proclaimed a saint or Universal Teacher of pure Orthodoxy, despite what Saint Justinian may have written or what the Latin (not the Greek) manuscripts of the synodal Sentence may say.

The tradition of the Orthodox Churches of the East was not to venerate Augustine liturgically even though he was equally and possibly more famous and influential than Saint Leo the Great and Saint Gregory the Great. The fact that Saints Patrick, Vincent, and others were not venerated in the East is because they were not well known. Augustine was not venerated in the East due to God’s providence, not lack of knowledge about his existence. The primary sources, the expert scholarship, and the dominant liturgical tradition of the Orthodox Church does not uphold Augustine’s one-sided approach to soteriology or his liturgical veneration in the East. We can call him “holy” as we sometimes do Theophilus of Alexandria or Theodoret of Cyrrhus (who both made great errors) or any Orthodox bishop (“Holy Master, bless”) or any Orthodox priest (“Holy Father, bless”), but it is best to maintain tradition and not venerate Augustine of Hippo Regius with liturgical hymns in the Menaion as a teacher of pure Orthodoxy. He was not pure, but made grievous errors, as is widely admitted, including even by Father Seraphim Rose, Metropolitan Emeritus Chrysostomos of Etna, Vladimir Moss, and other defenders of veneration. I am advocating nothing innovative at all here, simply the tradition of the Orthodox Church that 1) recognizes serious errors in Augustine’s writings and (2) does not venerate him liturgically.

I'm going to respond to the general themes here God willing, tomorrow.

Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

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Re: Discord Spillover Was "The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church"

Post by Suaidan »

Ok I was about to write a response, but I have to ask right now: is it true that HTM/HOCNA recently removed SAINT JEROME from the Calendar?

I just discovered this today, and I'm in shock.

Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

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Re: Discord Spillover Was "The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church"

Post by Stylite Nous »

Are they supportive of the Imyeslavya heresy BTW?

a sinner, but not a heretic

(I am 'ascender' on YouTube superchats)

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Re: Discord Spillover Was "The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church"

Post by Thomas_Deretich »

GOD'S NAMES

I am not a spokesman (official or unofficial) for the Holy Orthodox Church in North America (HOCNA). However, I am certainly able to quote from several of HOCNA’s official statements over the years related to the names of God. These statements and many others make it crystal clear that HOCNA does not teach any “heresy” related to the names of God. HOCNA has always followed the final doctrinal decision of the Orthodox Church on this matter (in Saint Tikhon of Moscow’s February 1921 letter): “not to consider His Name to be God’s essence, not to separate it from God, not to consider it another Deity, not to deify [or give divine-worship to] letters and sounds and random thoughts about God” (Имя Его не считать за сущность Божию, не отделять от Бога, не почитать за особое Божество, не обожать букв и звуков и случайных мыслей о Боге).

Metropolitan Ephraim, June 6/19, 2012: “if anybody (including Father Anthony Bulatovich) is guilty of … Deifying letters, sounds and random/accidental thoughts about God, … then he is certainly guilty of heresy. If he does not actually advocate such teachings [the four errors listed by Saint Tikhon], then it only seems fair to say that he is not guilty of heresy.” [Please note that claiming that “a created name consisting of letters and sounds is an uncreated energy of God” would be a form of deifying letters and sounds. Therefore, Metropolitan Ephraim is clearly rejecting the false notion that a created name can be an uncreated energy.]

HOCNA Synod of Bishops, August 29/September 11, 2012: “Our Holy Synod endorses and espouses the theological solution to the controversy surrounding the Name of God found in the following Encyclical of Saint Tikhon, Patriarch of Moscow “… not to deify letters, sounds and random/accidental thoughts about God.”

HOCNA Synod of Bishops, September 5/18, 2012: “We do not believe … That letters, sounds and random/accidental thoughts about God are to be deified.”
HOCNA Synod of Bishops, September 27/October 10, 2012: “Orthodox Christians believe: … That created letters, sounds, and random or accidental thoughts about God must not be deified. Further, they believe that these letters or sounds must not be used for occult or magical purposes.”

Bishop Gregory of Brookline, October 7/20, 2012: “When this Name is articulated in human words, it, of course, is not the Energy of God, but rather, it has the same holiness as an icon, and we may say that God’s Energy is present in this created (sacred) word.”

Excerpts from Serge Verhovskoy, distributed by Metropolitan Ephraim, November 28, 2012: “A Name of God, as a human word, is, of course, created. (It is, therefore, possible to use it senselessly or ‘in vain.’ The identification of a Name of God, as a [created] word, with God Himself is a heresy which was condemned by the Russian Holy Synod in the twentieth century.) But God Himself can dwell and act in it.”

Metropolitan Ephraim of Boston, Bishop Gregory of Brookline, and Thomas Deretich, March 16, 2014 : “in terms of human speech, the names of God are both created and temporal, being part of this world, and they are certainly not an Energy of God.”

Metropolitan Gregory of Boston, November 7/20, 2017: “Not only letters and sounds, but also human ideas and thoughts, that is, everything which created words consist of, are not God. To deify them is to fall into pantheism. We have always condemned this false teaching and will continue to condemn it, both in writing and verbally. This is what ‘Name-worshiping’ is. Of course this is a heresy, and we have never had anything to do with this teaching.… As regards the historical Athonite controversy concerning the Name of God, we as the local Church in North America (and not at all the local Russian Church), have no intention of meddling in this or resolving it, adhering in this to the position of the Most Holy Tikhon, Patriarch of Moscow,..., which at this time canonically represents the last word expressed by the Russian Church on this question, until its careful and unbiased future examination by a legitimate Council. All our current theological views proceed from theses set forth in this document [by Saint Tikhon in 1921].…. The prerogative of finally resolving the ‘Athonite affair,’ in our opinion, belongs to a future legitimate Council of the Russian Church, the successor of the All-Russian Council of 1917–18, which was to have taken up this matter, but was not able to because of the civil war and troubles which began in Russia. But to confess and adhere to the teaching of the Holy Fathers on this or on any other theological question — that is not only our business, but simply our duty! I will personally add, that if anyone intentionally or even due to ignorance and lack of education, during the events of the beginning of the last century on Athos, fell into the error of ‘Name-worshiping,’ that is, pantheism, then of course we condemn this.”

Holy Orthodox Metropolis of Boston, official website (2019): "The Holy Orthodox Church in North America (HOCNA) has always considered 'name-worshipping' (giving divine-worship to a created name or claiming that a created name is God or divine energy) to be heresy. HOCNA has always taught that it would be heresy to deify created letters and sounds, to claim that a created name can be God or divine energy."

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Stylite Nous
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Re: Discord Spillover Was "The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church"

Post by Stylite Nous »

Well I'm glad they take a balanced stance, then. If hypothetically I were to join HOCNA, I wouldn't have a heresy killing my soul

a sinner, but not a heretic

(I am 'ascender' on YouTube superchats)

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