The Chess Thread (formerly a spam post)

[SavaBeljovic]

Interestingly, if you check the rudder, it appears that according to the interpretation of Saint Nikodemos, even laypeople are forbidden from playing chess.

I've ever heard card games, dice games and games of chance are forbidden for Orthodox Christians to play... Never heard about Chess being prohibited.

[AaronC]

Interestingly, if you check the rudder, it appears that according to the interpretation of Saint Nikodemos, even laypeople are forbidden from playing chess.

Curious to read the citation on that one

It's on page 732 of the Rudder PDF - Canon L. I went to check which counsel, but I've got a terribly clunky setup over here

[Suaidan]

It's on page 732 of the Rudder PDF - Canon L. I went to check which counsel, but I've got a terribly clunky setup over here

It's Trullo.

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I'd like to delve a bit further, because assuming that is St Nikodemos' interpretation (which is a safe bet) I am curious why he doesn't distinguish betwen games of chance or games of skill. The Latin of Trullo is quite direct in the banning of dice.

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That said, until we find Saints and Fathers saying otherwise, chess is presumably off the table without a blessing, and dice is off the table altogether.

Note: here this reddit attempts to cope with the idea of chess as a "drunken activity" citing Zonaras.

We will likely have to consult Bp Nikodim (Milash)'s comments on the matter, if there are any. But if we're being honest it's not looking great for chess fans. On the other hand the fact that Tsar-Martyr Nicholas may have established chess as part of the culture may also mean he referred to Church authorities on the matter so there may be some commentary there as well.

[AaronC]

I suppose it's possible that this could only apply if there's an element of gambling involved, but then again, chess isn't something I would usually think of when it comes to gambling. There could have been a culture surrounding it back then though.

A good one to ask our bishops no doubt. Looks like there's going to be a lot of unusual questions for them from some of the discussions I've seen online recently

[SavaBeljovic]

It's on page 732 of the Rudder PDF - Canon L. I went to check which counsel, but I've got a terribly clunky setup over here

It's Trullo.
image.png

I'd like to delve a bit further, because assuming that is St Nikodemos' interpretation (which is a safe bet) I am curious why he doesn't distinguish betwen games of chance or games of skill. The Latin of Trullo is quite direct in the banning of dice.

image.png

That said, until we find Saints and Fathers saying otherwise, chess is presumably off the table without a blessing, and dice is off the table altogether.

Note: here this reddit attempts to cope with the idea of chess as a "drunken activity" citing Zonaras.

We will likely have to consult Bp Nikodim (Milash)'s comments on the matter, if there are any. But if we're being honest it's not looking great for chess fans. On the other hand the fact that Tsar-Martyr Nicholas may have established chess as part of the culture may also mean he referred to Church authorities on the matter so there may be some commentary there as well.

Well Trullo is of course in every Nomocanon, but I wonder what all the Canonists have to say about it, such as Theodore Balsamon and of course Blessed Nikodim Milash... I will probably ask my Vladyka next time I speak to him and Vladyka Andronik. I do think its curious that games of skill and games of chance aren't distinguished. How about sports? Since there were sports in the Byzantine Empire and while a lot of Saints didn't view them very highly, maybe since chess has become a "sport" it's not viewed the same way it used to be when St. Nikodemos wrote his interpretation?

[eish]

I suppose it's possible that this could only apply if there's an element of gambling involved, but then again, chess isn't something I would usually think of when it comes to gambling. There could have been a culture surrounding it back then though.

Chess is historically a gambling game.

Our concept of chess championships today developed out of the professional players of the nineteenth century who played handicap chess for wagers, enticing their marks by offering better odds. If you were a nobody and a good player wanted to get you to part with your money, he would offer to play you without some value of pieces. If you were reasonably good you might be a “pawn player” and if you were a complete novice you might perhaps be a “queen player.”

Completely even chess without wagering money certainly existed but it is more of a 20th Century phenomenon. There's a reason why we see so much opening theory also developed in that century, since before that professional players usually did not play with the same constant opening material.

Handicap play is still the norm in Japanese chess.

[Stylite Nous]

The question then is, if it's played civilly and respectfully, and only as a game of skill (no gambling), does the canon have force here anymore?