It’s the unfortunate reality they’ve put themselves in.
I don't think it's fair to hold monasteries, especially on Mount Athos, to the same standard as laymen when it comes to joining a TO synod. As far as I understand, Mount Athos has always been decentralized in nature, historically. So forcing them to 'pick a side' (as in TO synods) as long as they are faithful to true Orthodoxy, that seems to be the important thing. It could be possible they are opting to wait until the GOC can heal it's own schisms and get itself together or something like that. I have no doubt they know what they are doing regardless, in these confusing times. Just my $0.02
[/quote]
I understand but some people here feel Esphigmenou is exempt from criticism (very sad)
Esphigmenou broke communion with the GOC-K because one of their priests who visited had a credit card. They ascribe to every single "mark of the beast" rhetoric that has popped up in Greece. First it was the new IDs without religious affiliation, then it was barcodes, then it was the new SSN, then it was credit cards and now it's the electronic ID, every single time, without fail, they refer to those things as THE mark of the beast, which is simply not true. They might be precursors, yes, we need to ween off them, yes, but are these things the mark from revelations? No. Going so far as to refuse plastic bottle of water because they have barcodes on them. That's not an Esphigmenite position though, that's simply a very prevailing apocalypticism that's prevalent among the older generations of Greeks.
Anyhow, nothing has happened and nothing will for the foreseeable future because a bunch of commemorating monasteries spoke up against Bart's actions. If also, for some reason you think Esphigmenou are genuine zealots and rigorists, the fact that they're not being represented by an outside entity means they need support from politicians, those being the Hellenic Solution party, led by a blasphemer who said Christ's father was a Greek soldier (the Pantera "theory") and in said support, they have to appeal to the pro-Russian crowd. That's why you never see Elder Methodios talk about Sergianism.
If you translate the title of this video:
You'll see that, at the very least, the friends of Esphigmenou are waiting for trad Orthodox Putin to interfere on the side of Esphigmenou.
Nobody mentioned that monks deserve death and police and sieges, in fact, glory to God they're being persecuted for their hardline stance against the EP. But let's not pretend they can do no error, they're humans at the end of the day and they make mistakes like we've all made.
Anyone assuming that people here would wish death upon the Esphigmenite monks is defensive to the point of dishonesty. Nobody here asked for their heads, the only thing that was raised was legitimate criticisms that have made the Esphigmenou situation worse for themselves, both legally and especially spiritually.
They're not the only non-commemorators on Mount Athos but they are the only headless ones, all the TO sketes are under a GOC bishop. What's the deal with that? Is it borne out of a legitimate concern regarding the TO synods or paranoia?
Last edited by Icthys on Tue 20 August 2024 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Oh and btw one of the so-called anti-Augustinians that Unseen is talking about was literally baptized as Augustine after the St. Augustine of Hippo.
So strike one.
Unseen broke the rules of the server, that's why he was banned, wherein he would misrepresent points people made and argue for hours against the points that didn't even belong to the people he was arguing against. When that would fail he would go to DMs just to profane others (really masculine behavior there, dude).
So strike two.
Instead of letting these topics die and just focus on his own spiritual journey, we have this thread that's spiralled out of control.
Strike three.
He bases his idea on HTM on Met. Demetrius' as if it's gospel, but in the same breath he'll pretend tollhouses are theologoumenos logos. Please ask Demetrius, a former Bostonite monk himself, what he thinks of tollhouses.
Strike four.
Unseen has isolated himself because of the super correctness that Fr. Seraphim talked about.
Strike five.
And for all his talk of proper Orthodoxy, he's not even baptized. Not even part of the kingdom of God, no prayers of exorcism done on him and no communion was ever received. Talking the talk but never having walked the walk, so to speak. Is his aggression born out of zeal or out of outside influence? Considering the profanities thrown against members of the chat, I'd say the latter.
My two cents, get baptized, leave the internet for a while and come back with a more sober mentality, one less influenced by demonic presence, which is a reality in all unbaptized and even baptized individuals.
Genuinely not trying to pull a holier-than-thou, but you're only falling into deeper wroth through the nonstop arguing, rather than being virtuous.
Oh and btw one of the so-called anti-Augustinians that Unseen is talking about was literally baptized as Augustine after the St. Augustine of Hippo.
So strike one.
Unseen broke the rules of the server, that's why he was banned, wherein he would misrepresent points people made and argue for hours against the points that didn't even belong to the people he was arguing against. When that would fail he would go to DMs just to profane others (really masculine behavior there, dude).
So strike two.
Instead of letting these topics die and just focus on his own spiritual journey, we have this thread that's spiralled out of control.
Strike three.
He bases his idea on HTM on Met. Demetrius' as if it's gospel, but in the same breath he'll pretend tollhouses are theologoumenos logos. Please ask Demetrius, a former Bostonite monk himself, what he thinks of tollhouses.
Strike four.
Unseen has isolated himself because of the super correctness that Fr. Seraphim talked about.
Strike five.
And for all his talk of proper Orthodoxy, he's not even baptized. Not even part of the kingdom of God, no prayers of exorcism done on him and no communion was ever received. Talking the talk but never having walked the walk, so to speak. Is his aggression born out of zeal or out of outside influence? Considering the profanities thrown against members of the chat, I'd say the latter.
My two cents, get baptized, leave the internet for a while and come back with a more sober mentality, one less influenced by demonic presence, which is a reality in all unbaptized and even baptized individuals.
Genuinely not trying to pull a holier-than-thou, but you're only falling into deeper wroth through the nonstop arguing, rather than being virtuous.
“I would disagree with only one point in your letter: I do not believe that I have presented the toll- houses as a dogma in my articles. I don’t think they really are a theologoumenon either, because they don’t belong properly to the sphere of dogma at all (except as they touch on the doctrine of the Particular Judgment), but rather belong to the Orthodox ascetic teaching and Orthodox piety. It would never occur to me to make belief in or even awareness of the toll-houses into a condition for baptism; but I would certainly expect that as a person goes deeper in the faith and reads the ascetic texts and Lives of Saints he would become acquainted with them and accept them as a matter of course. My articles have been meant as an attempt to facilitate this, whereas Deacon Lev’s articles, it seems to me, are an attempt to persuade people not to read this Orthodox literature as somehow harmful to a person’s Orthodoxy or state of soul.“— Fr. Seraphim Rose: Letter 287.
May 23/June 5, 1980
Using baptism as a weapon during a debate isn’t virtue.
And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? - Matthew 7:3
I’ll be baptized in a week or two. I’m walking. I’d say you’d probably should focus on keeping the grace of your own than worry about mine. Going around calling esphigmenou headless sounds pretty demonic to me.
“Wherein he would misrepresent points people made and argue for hours against the points that didn't even belong to the people he was arguing against.”
This isn’t discord. This is a post I made about The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church. This spillover wasn’t my doing.
Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom (Luke 12:32)
Esphigmenou is headless, that's a fact, it's not demonic to state facts, in fact it's demonic to dismiss facts, because demons lie.
Also, you're unbaptized, that is also fact, it's not a weapon against a debate because this is not even a debate, this is the spiraling of an argument that you misrepresented.
Take both Fr. Seraphim's quote into account when you're arguing about tollhouses and the Matthew quote when you're accusing others of being effeminate and heretical.
Absolutely nobody said in the discord that Esphigmenou deserved the raids, you made that up in your mind and attacked everyone else for your mental fabrication. Same thing happened with the monarchical Trinitarianism "debate" where you accused others of being anti-Trinitarian even though they never argued that.
You can argue against the strawmen you've fabricated all you want, but they're not the least indicative of what the other side is about.
You're dishonest, that's not judgment, that's not a speck in your eye, that's fact. I'm not judging you for your dishonesty, I'm pointing it out. My last point was a few words of advice, you're free to do whatever you want with them. If you think that's psychological projection because you caught me in demonic heresy because saying that bishopless clergy are headless, you're free to stay in your delusion. Because denying factual information is not a matter of opinion, it's a genuine lack of logic.
Esphigmenou is headless, that's a fact, it's not demonic to state facts, in fact it's demonic to dismiss facts, because demons lie.
Also, you're unbaptized, that is also fact, it's not a weapon against a debate because this is not even a debate, this is the spiraling of an argument that you misrepresented.
Take both Fr. Seraphim's quote into account when you're arguing about tollhouses and the Matthew quote when you're accusing others of being effeminate and heretical.
Absolutely nobody said in the discord that Esphigmenou deserved the raids, you made that up in your mind and attacked everyone else for your mental fabrication. Same thing happened with the monarchical Trinitarianism "debate" where you accused others of being anti-Trinitarian even though they never argued that.
You can argue against the strawmen you've fabricated all you want, but they're not the least indicative of what the other side is about.
You're dishonest, that's not judgment, that's not a speck in your eye, that's fact. I'm not judging you for your dishonesty, I'm pointing it out. My last point was a few words of advice, you're free to do whatever you want with them. If you think that's psychological projection because you caught me in demonic heresy because saying that bishopless clergy are headless, you're free to stay in your delusion. Because denying factual information is not a matter of opinion, it's a genuine lack of logic.
So you’re using a misunderstanding I had that was hashed out as leverage. That chart seems like a scholastic approach rather than a patristic one. Fr. Joseph already covered this esphigmenou topic. Saint Augustine was unbaptized until the end of his life. It’s been covered. Certainly a debate tactic. If I’m doing the typika, I have a spiritual father and I’m getting baptized… I’m walking it. I do not have a True Orthodox Church in my city. I have to travel. So you are using this “You’re not even baptized” thing as leverage. I didn’t fabricate anything. You’ve admitted it yourself. It came out your own mouths that they were at fault for their current persecution and you repeatedly call them headless.
Christ is the head of the Church and I have faith that Christ is with them. You on the other hand… I’m not so sure. Don’t let your hate for me blind your reason. I’m free to stay in my delusion? What’s real delusional is your super correct bitter mentality. What exactly did I misrepresent. You’ve all proven I wasn’t lying about the esphigmenou topic. You‘re looking for anything you can to use against me. Which is fine. This isn’t discord. You can try to control the narrative but it backfired.
I think you really should take Fr. Seraphim’s quote into account truthfully. Because you’ve misrepresented his position on the Tollhouses multiple times and you think you’re the authority on everything Greek because you’re Greek.
“The author of one of the new books on after-death experiences made a point of asking the opinion of various ‘sects’ on the state of the soul after death. Thus, he called a priest of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese and was given a very general opinion of the existence of heaven and hell, but was told that Orthodoxy does not have ‘any specific idea of what the hereafter would be like.’ The author could only conclude that ‘the Greek Orthodox view of the hereafter is not clear.’ On the contrary, of course, Orthodox Christianity has a quite precise doctrine and view of life after death, beginning from the very moment of death itself.”
(The Soul After Death, 3)
Seem pretty angry man. Get off the internet for awhile and focus on your spiritual life. It goes both ways.
Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom (Luke 12:32)
It’s the unfortunate reality they’ve put themselves in.
I don't think it's fair to hold monasteries, especially on Mount Athos, to the same standard as laymen when it comes to joining a TO synod. As far as I understand, Mount Athos has always been decentralized in nature, historically. So forcing them to 'pick a side' (as in TO synods) as long as they are faithful to true Orthodoxy, that seems to be the important thing. It could be possible they are opting to wait until the GOC can heal it's own schisms and get itself together or something like that. I have no doubt they know what they are doing regardless, in these confusing times. Just my $0.02
I understand but some people here feel Esphigmenou is exempt from criticism (very sad)
I think legitimate criticism from Athonite monastics makes sense. Not noobies on a Discord server. People doing that should be ashamed of themselves.
That's straight up pathetic. This is one of the reasons why I blew up the server. Now we're seeing the results.
