Discord Spillover Was "The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church"

[ByzantophileTheodore]

Additionally, Saint Constantine was baptized in Rome by Saint Sylvester and not on his deathbed by Arians as is commonly claimed.

Unseen, you are the one who brought up baptism. While I don’t know the exact circumstances of your situation, it goes without saying that we shouldn’t use cherry-picked examples from the lives of saints to downplay the necessity of baptism.

On one hand, baptism is not a blank check to do apologetics or run amuck. We baptized laypeople have to avoid getting puffed up with vainglory about our baptism. However baptism is the first tangible step in our Christian life. It’s also a vital sacrament necessary for salvation. You could know every Ecumenical Council off by heart, but if you aren’t baptized what is it all for? I’m very glad that you are getting baptized.

[Unseen.Warfare]

Thats not my point.....
I know the practise occurred, but it was not approved of by the Church. It wasn't common either as far as I'm aware. Happy to be corrected.

You're being deceptive because the argument is irrelevant. Anyway, I digress. It seems a number of people have told you the same thing but you'd rather trust yourself and believe that everyone is out to get you. Maybe focus on your spiritual life instead of whining and calling people narcissists on the Internet.

Very true.

There’s a certain type of guy today who has never been baptized but who considers himself an expert apologist of Orthodoxy from reading a lot of books or listening to podcasts. This is only intellectual knowledge and not wisdom or experience. They have very little self-awareness about how this comes off and how little good it does. In fact, it does considerable harm. These guys jump into polemics with both feet and talk a big game on the internet, but it’s all theory which is the easy part of Orthodoxy. When others don’t give them the validation they want, they lash out. Many of them end up in apostasy because they had no guidance to begin with. I’ve seen it again and again with good friends who eventually left TO or WO or just never got baptized to begin with. This is a huge problem in both TO and WO circles. Many people don’t give our faith the time of day partially because of their bad experiences with this type of person. If we tolerate this and don’t call it out, we are consequently teaching and condoning it.

This type talks a lot of trash and has little respect. The keyboard warrior stuff is on display here. I’m not going to rise to the bait and reciprocate in kind as this stuff is a frankly an embarrassment to our Church. God and His Church will not be mocked. I will say this:

It’s not masculine to slander someone as “feminine” or having “boyfriends” over a computer screen. I invite Unseen to come visit me in [redacted] and say these slanders to my face. It’s a small town and easy to find me.

That’s simply a wake-up call to Unseen or anyone else who is doing similar things: this is not what Orthodox Christianity is about. I’m no teacher of the faith but I know that much for sure.

None of us are perfect or super-pious. I often make mistakes and have had to apologize to many people along my journey. I’m very glad they called me out and held my feet to the fire, and I hope they always will. Unseen may hate me now for giving him brutal honesty, but I hope he takes it to heart one day.

You’re feminine. Take a screenshot. It lasts longer.

Not everyone is blessed enough to have a True Orthodox Church in our area so we have to do typika and travel pretty far distances to be involved with the Church. So, if I have a spiritual father, I am getting baptized and it’s overdue which is what my spiritual father said and I’ve been involved with Orthodoxy for a considerable amount of time… You’re using this baptism narrative as leverage to take focus off the actual subject. Would you have told Saint Augustine he should have been baptized sooner? Probably. Gate keeping because you’re baptized is wild. Do you take pride in the Eucharist aswell? Will what I say have validity in a week?

[Barbara]

Goodness ! Please everybody, it's the Holy Feast, let's try to look at our commonalities and shared ideas, and not think about all the differences of opinion, at least today !

What is the update on Esphigmenou, though ? Earlier in this thread, I read about armored vehicles pulling up and elderly monks reposing due to lack of supplies for their illnesses, it sounds like.

We all agree that no matter how vague their ecclesiastical status is, that we sympathize with the monks' terrible plight. The Greek state has always been heartless toward True Orthodox. Would you all say they are WORSE now, or just the same as in the past ?

[Unseen.Warfare]

Goodness ! Please everybody, it's the Holy Feast, let's try to look at our commonalities and shared ideas, and not think about all the differences of opinion, at least today !

What is the update on Esphigmenou, though ? Earlier in this thread, I read about armored vehicles pulling up and elderly monks reposing due to lack of supplies for their illnesses, it sounds like.

We all agree that no matter how vague their ecclesiastical status is, that we sympathize with the monks' terrible plight. The Greek state has always been heartless toward True Orthodox. Would you all say they are WORSE now, or just the same as in the past ?

https://orthochristian.com/161818.html

“We’re ready to defend the monastery to the death; this is our spiritual homeland. Here we were born spiritually and here we will die. The police are just employees... They’re obliged to do what they are told, and they’re hounding us.

If the fathers of the monasteries and the police come here so that Greeks fight Greek monks, they should get this idea out of their heads. But let them come. And whatever happens, let it happen. If the police drag me and pull me, will the monks sit with their hands tied? Or if they see an officer hitting a monk, will the fathers sit and watch? Crimes will be committed, incited by these monks who have no purpose”

https://www.esphigmenou.com/What%20the% ... erview.htm

What about the death of the monk?

The situation is under investigation. Regardless of the outcome if he was chased… whatever the details…. This would have never arisen (to drive the tractor at night to avoid detection) if the police blockade were not here. The Patriarch and leaders that put the blockade in place are responsible for causing his death.

Isn’t the eviction legal?

The eviction violates the autonomy of the Mt Athos charter. The label of schismatics is not based in any orthodox church teaching. An eviction can only be performed when you are on someone else’s property. The Monastery is private property and belongs to the brotherhood of Esphigmenou. This was affirmed by Greece’s Minister of Culture, Evangelos Venizelos, as reported by Athens News Agency on Jan 17, who stated at a meeting in Brussels “all the land there belongs to each monastery and is therefor private, without exception, and without any of it belonging to the public or the Greek state.” The eviction is illegal. The Patriarchate is putting strong pressure on the government as a means of resolving a dispute by force without having to discuss the underlying issues in an open forum – a Orthodox Church Synod, violating a long tradition of how differences have been resolved in the Orthodox church. Issuing a Papal like ruling of being schismatic and then calling on the use of military force to enforce it. This is no different than what the crusaders did to other Christians.

(Not looking good)

[RocaRemnant]

Goodness ! Please everybody, it's the Holy Feast, let's try to look at our commonalities and shared ideas, and not think about all the differences of opinion, at least today !

What is the update on Esphigmenou, though ? Earlier in this thread, I read about armored vehicles pulling up and elderly monks reposing due to lack of supplies for their illnesses, it sounds like.

We all agree that no matter how vague their ecclesiastical status is, that we sympathize with the monks' terrible plight. The Greek state has always been heartless toward True Orthodox. Would you all say they are WORSE now, or just the same as in the past ?

https://orthochristian.com/161818.html

“We’re ready to defend the monastery to the death; this is our spiritual homeland. Here we were born spiritually and here we will die. The police are just employees... They’re obliged to do what they are told, and they’re hounding us.

If the fathers of the monasteries and the police come here so that Greeks fight Greek monks, they should get this idea out of their heads. But let them come. And whatever happens, let it happen. If the police drag me and pull me, will the monks sit with their hands tied? Or if they see an officer hitting a monk, will the fathers sit and watch? Crimes will be committed, incited by these monks who have no purpose”

https://www.esphigmenou.com/What%20the% ... erview.htm

What about the death of the monk?

The situation is under investigation. Regardless of the outcome if he was chased… whatever the details…. This would have never arisen (to drive the tractor at night to avoid detection) if the police blockade were not here. The Patriarch and leaders that put the blockade in place are responsible for causing his death.

Isn’t the eviction legal?

The eviction violates the autonomy of the Mt Athos charter. The label of schismatics is not based in any orthodox church teaching. An eviction can only be performed when you are on someone else’s property. The Monastery is private property and belongs to the brotherhood of Esphigmenou. This was affirmed by Greece’s Minister of Culture, Evangelos Venizelos, as reported by Athens News Agency on Jan 17, who stated at a meeting in Brussels “all the land there belongs to each monastery and is therefor private, without exception, and without any of it belonging to the public or the Greek state.” The eviction is illegal. The Patriarchate is putting strong pressure on the government as a means of resolving a dispute by force without having to discuss the underlying issues in an open forum – a Orthodox Church Synod, violating a long tradition of how differences have been resolved in the Orthodox church. Issuing a Papal like ruling of being schismatic and then calling on the use of military force to enforce it. This is no different than what the crusaders did to other Christians.

(Not looking good)

Esphigmenou has made a choice to commemorate no bishop and pretend that there’s no GOC. They are “head-less.” They took their priesthood from the Kallinikos Synod and then abandoned them. What do they expect? They have no protection and no ties. If you want to do everything by yourself then good luck. Could’ve relied on legal ammo by saying they’re with a synod who identifies on paper as a heretical organisation but that’s not the case. They put themselves in this situation.

The old abbot Efthymios, a holy man, did not recognize the GOC schisms and was with all. He had only one priest, Methdoius. When he died, Methodius took over. He went immediately to GOC-K and had many new monks ordained priests. Now because of the Cyprianites they left GOC-K. If you call the monastery and you ask who they are with they will say word for word “we are with our abbot.” So that’s good for them.

If you don’t want a bishop, playing victim is the next best alternative.

[Unseen.Warfare]

Additionally, Saint Constantine was baptized in Rome by Saint Sylvester and not on his deathbed by Arians as is commonly claimed.

Unseen, you are the one who brought up baptism. While I don’t know the exact circumstances of your situation, it goes without saying that we shouldn’t use cherry-picked examples from the lives of saints to downplay the necessity of baptism.

On one hand, baptism is not a blank check to do apologetics or run amuck. We baptized laypeople have to avoid getting puffed up with vainglory about our baptism. However baptism is the first tangible step in our Christian life. It’s also a vital sacrament necessary for salvation. You could know every Ecumenical Council off by heart, but if you aren’t baptized what is it all for? I’m very glad that you are getting baptized.

The comment that I’ve gotten my knowledge from books and podcasts and just jumped straight into apologetics is not true. You have absolutely no clue what my walk with Christ has been. My very first experience with Orthodoxy was building cells for the monks at cobleskill and I have had many long discussions with clergy and very Holy People along the way. Long hours of prayer and suffering and asking God for direction and discernment. This man has no clue what I’ve been through in my life to get to this point. Making assumptions about a person you do not know and insinuating I’ll be an apostate and I have no direction is rooted in a inflated ego that can’t handle being challenged.

When you gotta have three people attempt to debate me at once and you still get schooled and resort to personal attacks… We both know what’s up. Your ego took a hit and it made you angry.

[Suaidan]

Esphigmenou has made a choice to commemorate no bishop and pretend that there’s no GOC. They are “head-less.” They took their priesthood from the Kallinikos Synod and then abandoned them. What do they expect? They have no protection and no ties. If you want to do everything by yourself then good luck. Could’ve relied on legal ammo by saying they’re with a synod who identifies on paper as a heretical organisation but that’s not the case. They put themselves in this situation.

The old abbot Efthymios, a holy man, did not recognize the GOC schisms and was with all. He had only one priest, Methdoius. When he died, Methodius took over. He went immediately to GOC-K and had many new monks ordained priests. Now because of the Cyprianites they left GOC-K. If you call the monastery and you ask who they are with they will say word for word “we are with our abbot.” So that’s good for them.

If you don’t want a bishop, playing victim is the next best alternative.

I cannot sincerely believe this is the position of any senior cleric or Bishop in the GOC-K, but if it is, woe.

Attacking the abbot of Esphigmenou is really dangerous ground to stand on. That's all I'm going to say. And I don't mean in terms of any group online. I'm kind of referring to a higher authority.