Discord Spillover Was "The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church"

[Suaidan]

UDPATE: This thread is now split at the point where the topic had diverged.

@moderator

While there is a disagreement here, I have always erred on the side of caution when it comes to moderation. I am not privy to (a) what happened on the Discord (I'm not on any servers myself and plan to keep it that way) (b) anything else that precipitated a conflict. I'm not going to get into the Platina vs HTM thing; that's been beaten to death in the past, and most of the living involved have since made peace, but none would deny that there was a real conflict that occurred.

However, neither side in this case has done anything to merit discipline. No one's cursing at each other or hurling invective that has been on this site for 20 years now. I would expect any thread with "Blessed Augustine" in the title over the past two decades to produce similar results here. My only advice for both sides is to work it out over private message. But I'm not going to discipline Unseen or Theodore. The truth comes out, one way or another.

In Christ
Fr Joseph
a humble mod

[Unseen.Warfare]

Unseen,
What you’re saying here about our discord is a series of absurd slanders, but at this point it doesn’t phase me much. I hope you repent of this. You brought so much falsehood into the thread since yesterday that I’m forced to respond.

I won’t address anything else to him because behind it all he knows what he did. To set the record straight for everyone else, we didn’t ban him because of his position on old HTM. I know Discord has a bad reputation deservedly, but we try to make our server an exception. We have many people in our server who criticize HTM very much (past and present). We banned Unseen because he broke our rules about respectful discussion. He cussed out a lot of people (including a mentally ill person who was basically harmless). I have screenshot after screenshot of this, but I’m going to take the high road here and not post them here. Not a single person in our discord as far as I’m aware has treated him how he treats others online. Perhaps he calls this “softness” on our part but in reality it is just turning the other cheek. Cussing out people over the internet doesn’t make someone a tough guy. Turning the other cheek is what’s truly tough. He has never apologized to anyone in our server - nobody will lose any sleep over this but it’s worth mentioning. This is all from the person who called people in our server “Super-Correct heretics” over and over, and is still clutching at straws to attack us with.

It’s only after I had three of you coming at me did I react that way. That’s the definition of narcissism. You provoke a reaction and act like you did nothing to cause it. A mentally ill person? Now you’re going for blood. You don’t know the situation and you’re using it, Because you’re a manipulative pos. Why are you resorting to personal attacks and attempting to dig up dirt to attack my character instead of looking at the information. Yea, because you know what you were defending and you kicked me out for calling you and your boyfriends out and I never called you a heretic. Give a dämn about a screenshot because it was the exact same thing. In fact, the person you are talking about APOLOGIZED to me. That’s right. You know why? Because they are fully aware of what happened and it’s not the way you’re trying to make it out to paint your picture. Post the screenshots, since you want to use something as leverage against me. This is the reality. I don’t give a darn. You really are trying to manipulate this in the worst way. Which is expected from a guy who won’t even admit you defended your boy saying esphigmenou was at fault for their current persecution. I’ve reached out and I did make peace with a few people. But, whatever man. As far as I’m concerned you’re full of spit and anyone with a brain can see it. I own my mistakes. Do you? Or do you manipulate your way out of admitting them?

Is being tough pretending you’re so pious but secretly a snake. Get real

This whole ego trip you’re on and the passive aggressive little jabs shows your really holding face. What, turn the other cheek to sneak and stab someone in the back.

You’re acting like I care about being kicked. I could careless. What’s got you so heated is all the points I brought up are clearly stated in these letters. Your pride took a hit so you want to smokescreen away from the actual topics. Which are HTM’s revisionism, Rejection of Tollhouses and Fr. Seraphim giving New Calendarist communion and esphigmenou being at fault for their current persecution. That was the discussion and it was perfectly fine for three of you to come at me with passive aggressive insults but the moment I gave you a taste of your own medicine I broke the rules. You all put words in my mouth and called me Greg of Colorado multiple times for simply stating what is clearly in these letters. You created a strawman and said “this is what you believe”. Which was never the case… To create this imaginary view I have in your head on the discussion. “They were on good terms at one time and super correctness isn’t a heresy”. Both are not relevant to the discussion and you’re aware of it. I never said otherwise.You couldn’t stand that you’d been corrected. That’s it really. What’s the fruit of super correctness. We are talking about the loss of savor of True Orthodoxy. That was my point.

This is what a narcissist does. You take focus off of what actually happened and put all the focus on the reaction you pushed as justification for your own actions and your own behavior and you play victim. I’m not the one who came to your post and lied to make myself feel better.

How good of you to take the high road and play to the crowd.

You kicked me because I challenged you and your mods on these topics. Mods who started the disrespect truthfully. I was presenting information on said topics. It’s only after you three decided to three verses one with passive aggressive insults did I match you and once I matched you three… “You can get out of our server”. Haha. So what are we really talking about. The only one who has slandered anyone is you. You claimed my view doesn’t take in account that HTM and Platina weren’t on good terms at one time. You claimed I see no value in HTM and you claimed I’m like Greg of Colorado and you claimed I view Fr. Seraphim Rose as the Pope of True Orthodoxy.

Where is the slander from my part?

Also, this whole “God knows what you did” Trip is crazy. As if you are holier than thou. Clearly some spiritual delusion going on here. You see yourself as a authority because you have a discord.

“You’re confusing converts” someone literally said that to me for just stating the facts. “We’re tired of you attacking HTM”. When I’m reading how this group is making protests at Archbishop Averky’s funeral, claiming they are the authority on Orthodoxy, saying “don’t trust the Russians” and attacking the Orthodox Word and other really wild things they did. Of course I’m not going to have the greatest outlook on them. If you want to be like them. Go for it, a few of you clearly hold the same views as they do. Overt Strictness doesn’t make you Orthodox. It makes you a Pharisee. But, yea. I guess I see Fr. Seraphim Rose as the Pope of Orthodoxy because I don’t agree with revision and I don’t believe in hiding s-x scandals against the monks and acting like the person who did them is a Saint because he stood next to one in a picture. Btw, they called me a donatist because I pointed out elder worship and said I was elder worshipping Fr. Seraphim as a rebuttal. That’s where this whole pope of orthodoxy thing is coming from. The devil hates when the Truth truly comes out and that’s exactly what’s happening here.

I’ll end with this. I do not see Fr. Seraphim Rose as the Pope of True Orthodoxy. But, I do see him as a Saint. I do not however believe that Fr. Panteileimon was a Saint. i see him as a pseudo elder who used his relations with real Saints to create a elder cult. In the document I posted on zealotry it’s clear they wanted a monopoly over the Greeks in America and were willing to slander and lie and did many rotten things to get that power. This wasn’t a brotherly dispute. This was a group inside of Rocor that seen themselves as very separate and they didn’t slightly respect the Rocor Bishops or their opinions and they ended up breaking away. One of the members in the discord who was coming at me is in GOC-M and they went into communion with HOCNA in 2013. So, that should tell you where this is coming from. He’s trying to cover all his bases and use anything he can to cover his own a$$ because he knows very well the real reason I was kicked was exposing super correctness. The way he’s making it seem is like I was just calling people “SUPER CORRECT HERETICS” over and over again. When I never did that.

[Unseen.Warfare]

Unseen,
What you’re saying here about our discord is a series of absurd slanders, but at this point it doesn’t phase me much. I hope you repent of this. You brought so much falsehood into the thread since yesterday that I’m forced to respond.

I won’t address anything else to him because behind it all he knows what he did. To set the record straight for everyone else, we didn’t ban him because of his position on old HTM. I know Discord has a bad reputation deservedly, but we try to make our server an exception. We have many people in our server who criticize HTM very much (past and present). We banned Unseen because he broke our rules about respectful discussion. He cussed out a lot of people (including a mentally ill person who was basically harmless). I have screenshot after screenshot of this, but I’m going to take the high road here and not post them here. Not a single person in our discord as far as I’m aware has treated him how he treats others online. Perhaps he calls this “softness” on our part but in reality it is just turning the other cheek. Cussing out people over the internet doesn’t make someone a tough guy. Turning the other cheek is what’s truly tough. He has never apologized to anyone in our server - nobody will lose any sleep over this but it’s worth mentioning. This is all from the person who called people in our server “Super-Correct heretics” over and over, and is still clutching at straws to attack us with.

I’d like to say one more thing. When you talk about respectful discussion and during that discussion I’m keeping it respectful and only bring up information on the topics and you and your two boys are attacking me personally and I respond with the same level of respect you showed towards me and you can’t handle it. That makes you soft. You’ve lied repeatedly to hold face during this exchange. Nobody brought up your discord kid. You came to my post and started running your mouth. Obviously Fr. Seraphim’s letters struck a nerve. The fact you stock piled ammo with screenshots shows where your heads at. That’s feminine. I’d never in my life screenshot something you said in a heated discussion to use against you later.

Have you ever thought why I brought this subject up? Why do you think I’m so passionate about getting this point across. What’s my point about super correctness? Do you have enough discernment to figure it out? Because you’re downplaying it. This is one of the most important topics in True Orthodoxy today. Super correctness was one of the main points Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote about repeatedly. Why is that? Salvation is at stake with this question. Even if you dismiss it as not being a heresy. Isn’t that the same argument your boy has for the Tollhouses? They aren’t a dogma right? You’re missing the entire point. Don’t ever worry about my repentance. Focus on your own salvation. I posted this and it had nothing to do with you or your discord. You’re putting a little too much importance on yourself and critiquing my post on Super correctness shows who’s really behind your mentality. You’d take it serious if you were smart.

[AaronC]

While I agree with some of your points made about HTM, I'd also like to point out that the current mentality of Esphigmenou in some ways would also suggest that they have fallen into this "super correctness" that father Seraphim talked about. No doubt the persecution has played an active role in this and I'm not trying to judge them, but it's simply the reality that they've isolated themselves from the hierarchy by their excessive paranoia.

You seem very zealous for the faith and that's certainly admirable, but it's very easy for the demons to lead us astray in our zeal. To my understanding, you are fairly new to Orthodoxy and have not yet received the grace of Holy Baptism (please correct me if I'm wrong) and therefore, getting into debates online, no matter how "correct" you may feel you are, is probably not the best idea at this stage.

[AaronC]

"In the time ahead the devil will be using every chance to get true Orthodox Christians upset at each other over matter big and (mostly) small. We must firmly try not to take the bait."

Father Seraphim Rose

[Unseen.Warfare]

While I agree with some of your points made about HTM, I'd also like to point out that the current mentality of Esphigmenou in some ways would also suggest that they have fallen into this "super correctness" that father Seraphim talked about. No doubt the persecution has played an active role in this and I'm not trying to judge them, but it's simply the reality that they've isolated themselves from the hierarchy by their excessive paranoia.

You seem very zealous for the faith and that's certainly admirable, but it's very easy for the demons to lead us astray in our zeal. To my understanding, you are fairly new to Orthodoxy and have not yet received the grace of Holy Baptism (please correct me if I'm wrong) and therefore, getting into debates online, no matter how "correct" you may feel you are, is probably not the best idea at this stage.

Here we go. I’m well aware of “don’t be like them” quote. I’m not fairly new to orthodoxy and my baptism is way over due. I’ll be baptized soon by the grace of God. I was going to be baptized but I moved, which that really isn’t your business and it’s obvious this has been discussed amongst the group. I feel like this is used way too much to discredit anyone that has an opinion. It was used against Joel and I’ve already heard it before from Sava. What will you say when I’m baptized in a week? That I shouldn’t speak until a year from now? I don’t believe they are isolating themselves. I believe they did join a True Orthodox jurisdiction but in that jurisdiction they had issues they couldn’t compromise with. I also believe I trust their discernment over yours. I don’t think they are paranoid and I have reasons for that belief.

I also call into question the broke communion solely over a credit card narrative. That still does not justify anyone saying they are at fault for the current persecution. Because the EP is using the fact they were in communion with the GOC-k as justification for the current persecution. Meaning what difference really would it make if they were in communion when it comes to the persecution? Are they no longer confessing orthodoxy? This line of thinking is coming from the GOC-M. They are the ones pushing this narrative and it’s spreading at the worst possible time. As far as I know they are looking for a Jurisdiction and speaking to bishops. But, they also are in the middle of a very difficult situation as you know. The fact they were in the GOC-k to begin with tells us they aren’t privy to isolation.

They are well aware of joining themselves and not above being apart of a True Orthodox Jurisdiction. Whatever the reason they broke communion it had to be significant. Being who they are I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt and until we can get definitive information that can be confirmed that’s not coming from a biased source. I don’t think anyone should make the claims I’ve witnessed until we get some reliable evidence for those claims.

I’d like to point out that members of the Early Church weren’t baptized until the end of their lives. You have a very modern view of baptism and even if you are baptized I highly doubt this means you suddenly are valid enough to speak on Orthodoxy.

Truthfully, I feel like you’re using the correctness comment and the baptism comment to attempt to silence and discredit what I said. If it’s zeal not according to knowledge point it out. I’m not above constructive criticism. What I’m not cool with is using seemly good advice as a slight.

[AaronC]

Indeed, there's no reason for you to listen to some random guy on the Internet. Although, perhaps when multiple people are pointing out the same thing, you should consider the possibility of there being at least an element of truth in the claims.

As for Esphigmenou, I have close friends that have been there and personally witnessed their excessive zeal and delusion, and so them expelling a bishop for possessing a credit card is not at all difficult for me to believe. I'm not denying that there were additional reasons for ceasing commemoration.

Holding off on getting baptised was a practice that was never endorsed by the Church, despite it happening. Let's not start with deceptive argumentation.