Does the MP Have Grace?

[Justin Kissel]

Peter's right!

Julianna agreed with something Peter said! Everyone mark this down on their calendar!

[bogoliubtsy]

Of course, I believe we'd carry this conclusion(that they either have grace or don't) to opposite ends.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

I have seen an dreadful amount of questions in the past few months, on this forum and other forums, about whether or not the MP has Grace, and specifically, how the ROCOR has viewed this.

The argument goes around and around. I'm getting dizzy. And am starting to count my blessings the GOC has been clear on this issue form the beginning.

It is enough to know the MP is in communion with Monophysites, which is a recent development which would have made the ROCOR saints of recent memory level more than a few "sorrowful epistles".

It is enough to know they are in communion with the EP.

It is enough to know the MP accepts the Balamand Agreement.

It is enough to know they are in communion with the new-calendar to know they acept the new-calendar, and the ecumenism that comes along with it.

It is enough to know they are "organic" members of the World Church Council.

As far as I'm concerned, the Holy Fathers and Synods of the Orthodox Church make it clear the MP is "cut-off" for any single one of these reasons, much less them all collectively.

So there is no need to examine the ROCOR's past position with a microscope. Whatever that position was in the past, even perhaps flawed or ambiguous, clearly, if the ROCOR broke every last contact with Worldly Orthodoxy after the lifting of the Anathemas in the 60's, how would the 1960's ROCOR reacted with the events of the '90s?

[bogoliubtsy]

how would the 1960's ROCOR reacted with the events of the '90s?

The same way it actually did act in the 90's- staying on the Royal Path it has always taken...not falling to one extreme or the other. IMO

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

No Peter, they strengthened their relations with Worldly Orthodoxy even holding meetings with the MP, whereas in the '60's, they broke every last tie with them by ceasing communion with the Serbs.

Those who commune with heretics, that is, accepting their "baptisms", marriages, ordinations, ect is hardly the "Royal Path" of the Holy Fathers. Anyone who says such a thing must be a sentimentalist who thinks that the religion of Christ is an ethical system concerning human relations, and not the difference of Truth and falsehood.

What you perceive as an "extreme" path is the indisputable Royal Path of the Holy Fathers, who never accepted the baptism of a communion of heretics.

The mere fact that the ROCOR speaks of a union with the MP shows that their thoughts are quite anti-Christian. They thereby concede that it is possible to openly and blatantly commune with heretics and those deposed by an ecumenical Synod. That is not the Royal Path, that is the easy and wide path that leads to spiritual death.

Let all who speak so lightly about a union with the MP, or Grace within the MP, understand that the unity of the Church is a mystical gift of the divine presence. It is not something which is decided upon by Synods, but something which either exists or does not exist. No decision of men can constrain God. The Church of Christ, will always exist somewhere far from all these modern fabrications, unaltered, full of truth and light, pure of every falsehood of compromise, the only question will be, who has decided to stay a part of Her. Those are the real decisions being made these days.

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If one wants to ask, "doe the MP have Grace", then let them instead talk about whether or not the Monophysites have Grace, since they are organically the same church. The question in this poll therefore is "do Monophysites have grace?".

IMO, those on the Royal Path ask no such questions, only ecumenists do.

[bogoliubtsy]

I'll repeat it again- St. John, along with not a few great ROCOR hierarchs of the past, felt the the MP has Grace and that's good enough for me. When the Church glorifies saint "orthodoxyordeath" maybe I'll reconsider my position. Until then, I don't believe I'll be paying too much mind to your posts. I hate to be dramatic, but it's useless to continue this.

Until your glorification, here are some points I'd like to leave:

-Through documents that I've provided it has become abundently clear that ROCOR has accepted the Grace of "World Orthodoxy's" sacraments from their inception- the MP's included.

-Through personal information, and information from her father, Ania (who knew Met. Philaret!) has shown almost beyond doubt that St. John commemorated the Patriarch of Russia at times out of obedience. She has also shown that he never denied the grace of the MP's sacraments. I don't believe you have really addressed any of the almost faultless info that Ania has shared which runs contrary to your position, but was the positon of St. John and Met. Philaret.

-It's also clear- from things Ania has shared as well as documentation that ROCOR has never stopped concelebrating with Serbia.

-Although an opinion, I believe the ROCOR was influenced by a wave of fanatic super-correctness in the late 70's and early 80's. This is all detailed in Fr.Seraphim Rose's writings. Perhaps this period of time actually helped to put ROCOR on a "new path"- a path even more extreme then the one of years ago.-

-The "Old Calendar" debacle in Greece has brought shame to the Church. The waring and pharisaic factions there, almost all denying the Grace of members outside of thier minute communites, their constant splintering, slanderour remarks, and sweeping generlizations are a scandal to the Church- with the exception of Met. Cyprians Synod.

Fr. Seraphim Rose and the Russian hierarchy in the 1960' and 70's were quite concerned about their "Greek Problem". The righteous hiearchs, as well as Fr. Seraphim, knew the problems that the Greek extremists would bring- well, they eventually brought it.

The schisms, name calling, lack of love, and belief that formerly corrupt hierarchies can never change is really nothing new to the Church. Fanatical schisms have come and gone for centuries. They will continue to do so.

Let all who speak so lightly about their being NO GRACE in the MP remember the implications of this and understand that they will be accountable for their slander on the day of judgement.

That's about it.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Peter, I don't mean to scandalize you by making you angry. Perhaps I'll respond tomorrow in a more non-confrontational way. In the mean time, forgive me a sinner.