Does the MP Have Grace?

[Daniel]

Justin,
Go a little further in the 1990 Epistle:

This is why priests and believers from Russia are appealing to us to cover them with our omophorion, to impart grace to them. Our pastoral conscience tells us that we not only can, but we must help them...

Will we be creating a schism within the Church by doing this, as some who do not understand the Church's life of grace think and say? They obviously have forgotten or do not know that the schism Within the Church of Russia was caused sixty-three years ago by Metropolitan Sergius and his followers.

The Patriarchate of Moscow has not overcome the terrible consequences of the declaration, having lost the inner freedom of the Church by flagrantly violating Canon 30 of the Holy Apostles, and it stands resolutely and irrevocably on the path of destruction, even now when all levels of society are freeing themselves from the sins, false hood and hypocrisy of the past decades.

...there are millions of believers who remain without priests, without the nourishment of grace. We are receiving a great many letters from believers who are suffering from lack of spiritual food, in which they beg us to provide them with priests.

From the ‘94 Epistle

...we patiently await the return of the Moscow Patriarchate to the thousand-year historical path of the Russian Church, from which, unfortunately, it has diverged.

This quote from Fr. George Lardas, is some what taking the statement of the Sobor out of context.

Indeed our 1990 Sobor issued a statement affirming grace in the Mysteries performed by priests of the Moscow Patriarchate.

In responce to your quote from Lardas:

The free portion of the Church of Russia has remained spiritually, and with regard to grace, with the martyrs and confessors, glorifying their struggle and seeing there the glory and triumph of the Church during the dark and bloody days of her devastation.

The Patriarchate of Moscow has not overcome the terrible consequences of the declaration, having lost the inner freedom of the Church by flagrantly violating Canon 30 of the Holy Apostles, and it stands resolutely and irrevocably on the path of destruction, even now when all levels of society are freeing themselves from the sins, false hood and hypocrisy of the past decades.

With statements like these from the 1990 Epistle and the fact that Met. Philaret, along with the rest of the Synod, recognized the ordinations of the GOC, maintain the Ecumanist are outside of the Church, say alot about their postion to the matter of Grace in the MP

-Daniel

[Justin Kissel]

Julianna

ROCOR writes many documents and some that say the opposite of others it seems.

They seem to try to walk a fine line. Sometimes they come down on one side, sometimes on the other. Obviously when they don't come down on the side you agree with you're not going to be happy, and are going to see them as waffling.

maybe he'd missed this new take.

Well, maybe it was a new way for the Synod to articulate the official (or semi-official) ROCOR position. Certainly the idea that there was grace in the MP was not, in itself, a new concept (Fr. Seraphim Rose and others had been saying that for decades before this document)

Was this statement released in Russian or English? Vladika doesn't know English's why I'd asked

Though I don't know for certain, I would assume that it was published in Russian, and later translated into English.

What's edited?

I took a few words out so that it wouldn't be so wordy, and then realised that I wasn't suppose to edit.

Daniel

Go a little further in the 1990 Epistle:

Granted, they said that there was no problem having parishes there, and essentially that the MP was a schismatic (not heretical?) group. That doesn't negate the fact that they spoke of some priests, in small numbers, as having grace. Apparently for the Synod, this issue is not one of black and white (ie. it's not an either/or situation, where they either totally have grace, or none of them have grace). It seems to be a bit of both. Obviously ROCOR thinks that the great majority are graceless, or they wouldn't be there. On the other hand, they've also acknowledged that some people within the Patriarchate of Moscow "the grace of salvation is accessible in the mysteries".

This quote from Fr. George Lardas, is some what taking the statement of the Sobor out of context.

The quote given perhaps does not give the full picture of the synod's document, but then that charge could be made about anyone at any time. I mean, I could quote Jn. 3:16 and talk about love, and someone could accuse me of taking it out of context since a few passages later it talks about condemnation. They could say I wasn't giving a balanced interpretation/exegesis. But sometimes one doesn't want to explore every single aspect of a quote or passage, sometimes one is just making a point. If what I quoted was the end-all of Fr. George's understanding of that document, then I think your point would carry more weight. But as it is, I think Fr. George gave the best interpretation he could considering the context in which he was writing (ie. many were starting to break away from ROCOR, with the new groups multiplying; Fr. George being a pastorally minded person undoubtedly wanted to do what he could to keep zeal moderated [as it should be]). I don't think Fr. George said anything that wasn't said decades before (by Fr. Seraphim Rose and others). He said that "we did not take the official position that his [Sergius's] Mysteries were without grace." Is there an official statement out there that contradicts this? Perhaps one as explicit as the one mentioned earlier that affirms that there is grace in the mysteries of at least a few MP priests?

Justin

[bogoliubtsy]

Julianna, in 1990 the ROCOR synod said that at least some priests in the MP had grace. Why did Bp. Valentine join a group (ROCOR) that said that the MP had grace if he believed this to be untrue?

This is basically the same question I posed to Priest Dionysi awhile back. I don't believe a reply came. Come on... can people seriously say that ROCOR held, up until the mid-nineties, that the MP doesn't have grace? All you have to do is read some very accessible documents of past Sobors to find out this isn't true.

[bogoliubtsy]

We believe and confess that in those churches of the Patriarchate of Moscow where the priest fervently believes and sincerely prays, showing himself to be not only a "minister of the cult", but also a good shepherd who loves his sheep, to those who approach him with faith, the grace of salvation is accessible in the mysteries. Such churches are few in number on the immense territory of the Russian land.

Let me preface this by making note of the fact that I don't believe I have ever criticized the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia on this forum. Let me ask though- Doesn't this way of thinking border on Donatism? At what point does a priest's mysteries stop or start being valid?

[Justin Kissel]

Peter,

I've been grappling with this for some time (mostly in the context of what to do with traditionalist Serbian priests whose bishops participate in ecumenical movement). How can a Priest have grace, but not his bishop or patriarch? I don't know.

[Julianna]

Where there's the bishop there's the Church. A priest's only a priest by the blessing of his Bishop. A priest or layman under a heretical bishop's a heretic. Without his bishop's antiminsion he can't even have Liturgy!

Peter's right! :shock:

[Justin Kissel]

Yes, and you can give lots of canons and quotes to back that position up.

Of course, you'd probably (though I don't say necessarily) be ignoring the purpose of those canons, and the purpose and context of the quotes. It'd sort of be like a nuclear bomb going off and then proceeding to stop someone for jaywalking or driving without a seatbelt. I've seen enough examples of mirkiness in the Church Fathers to know that things aren't so black and white. This is a dilemna, a problem; it's not the first time in Church history that there have been such problems. There were "traditionalists" (usually called rigorists) and moderates back then too.