My understanding of sacramental issues

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Sorry Seraphim, I looked for the article and couldn't find it. I did find a peice of it though in another word document I had when I did a search. It is small enough to post here...

Just so everyone knows, the title was "Is the Papacy a Church"

But, someone may yet wonder, if it be true that heretics do not have Baptism, then why did the Church in the Second and Sixth Ecumenical Councils accept the baptism of certain heretics such as the Arians and Macedonians?

Here is how St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain answers this problem: "In order to have an easily understood solution to this perplexity, it is necessary to know beforehand that two kinds of government and correction are observed in the Church. One kind is called 'Exactness' (Akribeia), and the other kind is called 'Economy' and 'Condescension' (Oikonomia and Synkatabasis). With these the Stewards (Oikonomoi) of the Spirit administer the salvation of souls, at times with one, at times with the other. So the Holy Apostles in their aforesaid canons, and all the Saints who have been mentioned, employed Exactness; and for this reason they reject the baptism of heretics completely; while, on the other hand, the two Ecumenical Councils employed Economy and accepted the baptism of Arians and of Macedonians and of others, but refused to recognize that of the Eunomians and of still others .... Those heretics whose baptism they accepted also rigorously observed the form and the matter of the Baptism of the Orthodox and were willing to be baptized in accordance with the form of the Catholic Church. Those heretics, on the other hand, whose baptism they had refused to recognize, had counterfeited the ceremony of Baptism and had corrupted the rite, or the mode of the kind, or (in the terminology of the Latins) species, and the same may be said of the invocations, or that of the matter, and the same may be said of the immersions and emersions, with reference to Roman Catholics and Protestants" (Second footnote to the 46th Canon of the 85 Apostolic Canons).7

We must well understand that when the Church for reasons of economy accepts the baptism of heretics or schismatics, it does not mean that she accepts that their baptism was a real one from the beginning. She merely accepts that the form of the baptism need not be repeated so long as the form resembled that of Orthodox Baptism. This form (triple immersion in the name of the Holy Trinity, etc.) does not sanctify the heretic except only at the moment when, repentant, he is accepted into the Orthodox Church by the Chrism. Then and only then, by the sanctifying grace of the Church, is value given to that baptismal form which that man had at some time received and which was till then a dead form.

We see, therefore, that even though our Church occasionally accepts repentant Papists without baptizing them, this practice does not mean at all that she accepts the priesthood of the Papal Church and its mysteries as being a true Church. We know very well, and all the Latins confess it, that our Church in the beginning always baptized repentant Papists. We have the witness of the Papal Council in the Lateran at Rome in 1215, which reports in its fourth canon that the Easterners would never liturgize where a Westerner had previously liturgized if they had not first blessed water there for purification, and that they would rebaptize those coming into the Eastern Church as if they had no Baptism. Therefore, if then, when the Papists had far fewer heresies, the Church rebaptized them, how much more so should it be done now when the Latins have added error upon error? "Therefore:" writes St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain, "since until then, according to the witness of those selfsame enemies [the Latins], the Easterners had been baptizing them, it is evident that for a great economy they used later the method of Chrismation ...So the need of economy having passed, exactness and the Apostolic Canons must have their place." 8

"The baptism of the Latins," writes St. Nicodemos, "is one which is falsely called Baptism, and for this reason it is not acceptable either by reason of exactness or by reason of economy. It is not acceptable by reason of exactness for they are heretics." Further on he explains that neither by reason of economy is it permitted to be accepted, for the Latins do not even preserve the form of Baptism intact, inasmuch as "they do not perform the three immersions and emersions in accordance with the Apostolic Tradition. Therefore, the Latins are unbaptized;" concludes the Saint. And further on --as if he lived in our days! --he adds: "I know what the unhired defenders of the Latin pseudo-baptism say. They argue that our Church became accustomed at times to accepting converts from the Latins with Chrism, and there is, in fact, some formulation to be found in which the terms are specified under which we will take them in. With regard to this, we simply and justly reply thus: It is enough that you admit that she received them with Chrism. Therefore, they are heretics. For why the Chrism if they were not heretics?" 9 The natured (or hired) defenders of the Latin deception, says the Saint, gave it to be understood that since the Church became accustomed to accepting Latins with the Holy Chrism, without rebaptizing them, this signifies that she does not consider them as heretics and as completely alien to the Church. But, answers the Saint, to whom does the Church give the Chrism? Does she not give it to those who lack the Holy Spirit? Is not the Chrism "The Seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit"? Therefore, would she have ever chrismated them if she did not consider them as lacking the Holy Spirit, that is, as alien to the Church? The fact, therefore, that she chrismates them is the most manifest proof that she considers them heretics. Besides, it is Chrism, that gift of the Holy Spirit, which makes operative the previously dead Latin "baptism;" and which the Church only permitted by economy not to be repeated.10

"That the Latins," he continues, "are heretics, there is no need of our producing any proof in this matter. The very fact that we have felt so much aversion for them for so many centuries is a plain proof that we loathe them as heretics, in the same way, that is to say, as we do Arians or Sabellians or the Spirit-defying Macedonians. If, however, anyone should like to apprehend their heresies from books, he will find all of them in the writings of the most holy Patriarch of Jerusalem, Lord Dositheos, the Scourge of Popes, together with their most wire refutations. Nevertheless, one can also obtain sufficient information from the booklet of the wise Meniates entitled A Rock of Scandal. Enough was said concerning them by St. Mark of Ephesus in Florence (at the 25th Assembly), who boldly spoke thus: ' We have cut the Latins off from us for no other reason than that they are not only schismatics, but also heretics. For this reason it is wholly improper to unite with them.' And Sylvester, the Grand Ecclesiarch, said: 'The difference of the Latins is heresy, and as such did those before us hold it to be' (Section 9, Chapter 5). So, it being admitted that Latins are heretics of long standing, the immediate conclusion from this is that they are unbaptized, according to St. Basil the Great, cited above, and of the Saints preceding him, Cyprian and Firmilian. Because, having become common men as a result of their being cut off from the Orthodox Church, they no longer have with them the grace of the Holy Spirit with which Orthodox priests accomplish the Mysteries." 11

We have seen, therefore, that according to the mind of the Fathers, schismatics and heretics have of themselves withdrawn from the life-creating and illuminating grace of the Holy Spirit, and so that which many call "Church" is in reality nothing but a dead body which, although it preserves the external marks of the Church, has lost its life. It would be stupid and blasphemous to consider that Papists, who are guilty of the worst schism that the history of the Church has ever known and of a whole system of heresies, have valid Mysteries and priesthood. The fact that the Orthodox Church of late does not rebaptize them when they repent and return to her does not signify, as we have seen, recognition of the mysteries of the Papal "Church" and its ordination, but signifies a conveying of life and grace to a dead form which would have remained forever a meaningless social rite if the person involved had not repented and been accepted by the real Church of Christ.

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Seraphim Reeves
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Question

Post by Seraphim Reeves »

If I understood the article correctly, it says that the papists do not preserve even the form of baptism. While I agree that it is not a real (grace bearing) Baptism, is it not the case that the form of baptism by pouring acceptable in cases of emergency? My understanding is that it is, and that it wouldn't be redone later (if there were no doubts that it was an Orthodox Christian who did it, and that it was done properly), only the additional rites and Chrismation would be added.

Seraphim

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

I can see the confusion as I have been confused by this at times.

Emergency Baptisms, even an "air" Baptism of a dying infant, or the baptism in blood of a martyr, are all accepted by the Church. These are accepted because, while Baptism is not optional, the Grace and mercies of God are present and flow in the Church.

"We confess one baptism unto remission of sins and life everlasting. For baptism shows the death of the Lord (cf. Rom. 6:3). Indeed, through baptism we are buried with the Lord, as the divine Apostle says (Col. 2:12). Therefore, just as the death of the Lord happened but once, so is it necessary to be baptized but once. It is further necessary, in accordance with the Lord's word (cf. Matt. 28:19), to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit and thus to learn to confess Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Consequently, all those who have been baptized in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and have thus been taught the one nature of the Godhead in three Persons, but who are baptized again, as the divine Apostle says: 'For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated,' and so forth, 'to be renewed again to repentance, crucifying again to themselves the Christ and making Him a mockery' (Heb. 6:4-6)." (Chapter 9, Book IV, On the Orthodox Faith).

Therefore, since there is only one Baptism and the Grace of God flows within the Church, an emergency Baptism cannot be repeated just because the form was wrong. God does see the essence of matters and that his sheep are sometimes placed in circumstances of withering control.

Understand that in as much as it is within the control of men, men must follow the Will of God. The Will of God is an often overlooked aspect of Church life. An example might be, that you are visiting your father after many months of not seeing him, or maybe its just a weekly visit. Since you love your father with all of your heart and with all of your mind, you are striving to dress the way he likes to see you dressed. You speak the way in which it won’t upset him. You help him and offer your time as much as you can to please him. The same can be said in the Church. And within the type of Christisn life Christ explained, it is this kind of an expression of love for the Lord which is most cherished by Him.

Christ, and later the Apostles, set the example that the will of God is clearly three immersions, and since He is the Head of the Church, the Church teaches this Mystery exactly as it should be.

Now, when the Church accepts heretics, She is still striving to fulfill the will of God in the form of the Baptism, but also recognizes an earnest desire to bring that person into the Church. It is not a circumstantial ideal, but through “economia”, both the greater good of bringing a person to salvation and the upholding of Holy Tradition, which defines the Church, can be acheived.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Any further thoughts from anyone (I haven't even gotten a chance to read this thread yet! hehe)

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