Catholic-Lutheran Common Prayer set for 2017

[Matthew]

Matthew and Barbara, the Protestant "Reformers" simply imitated the original heresy of Papism, applying it generally, appointing each individual as his own infallible pope. What purpose is served by juxtaposing Catholicism and Protestantism, since they essentially are merely different applications of the same root heresy: Papism?

Vatican II is not the problem. Vatican I is not the problem. Papism is the problem.

All of us ought to read carefully the article linked below, and contemplate the implications, so that we all come to recognize that the root cause of all Protestant blasphemies originated with Roman Catholic Papism, and that to defend Catholicism while denouncing Protestantism is untenable, since Papism is the original Protestantism!

Papism as the Oldest Protestantism
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/papism.aspx

Fr. Justin (Popovich)

(excerpt)

"Papism indeed is the most radical Protestantism, because it has transferred the foundation of Christianity from the eternal God-Man to ephemeral man. And it has proclaimed this as the paramount dogma, which means: the paramount value, the paramount measure of all beings and things in the world. And the Protestants merely accepted this dogma in its essence, and worked it out in terrifying magnitude and detail. Essentially, Protestantism is nothing other than a generally applied papism. For in Protestantism, the fundamental principle of papism is brought to life by each man individually. After the example of the infallible man in Rome, each Protestant is a cloned infallible man, because he pretends to personal infallibility in matters of faith. It can be said: Protestantism is a vulgarized papism, only stripped of mystery (i.e., sacramentality), authority and power."

These are excellent points of correction you provide, Cyprian. Though, permit me to affirm that I did not intend to defend Roman Catholicism per se, but merely was saying that they had lost less of the faith, namely they retained sacramentality that Justin Popovitch refers to, so they had departed from Orthodoxy to a lesser degree than that to which Protestantism had done. Nevertheless, Papism will always give birth to Protestantism, like Siamese twins you can't have one without the other, so your point is well taken.

[Matthew]

In conclusion, I pose these questions:

1. How can a sedevacantist "Catholic" remain in the Catholic Church when he acknowledges that the Roman Papal See has been vacant for decades?
2. How does he still consider himself a Catholic?
3. How can a sedevacantist Catholic join with World Orthodoxy, when World Orthodoxy seeks union with Rome and all the heterodox religions of the world?
4. Since Christ promised us that His Holy Spirit would be with us always (Matt. 28: 19-20), and since the Genuine Orthodox Church alone remains faithful to Christ's teachings, doesn't it behoove all men to look into this True Church which has preserved the Holy Faith undefiled?

Here is my kick at the can -- hope it is helpful:

1. It is the bulk of the Latin theological errors that they continue to accept that keep them bound to Roman Catholicism, even a "popeless" one. They feel the need to hold on to Catholicism in general, and so where would they go if those other errors remain recognized by them as errors? Hence, they remain as a lesser evil or less untenable choice that totally being "adrift at sea" -- that is, completely churchless.

2. Who is "He"? The present Pope? or the average Sedevacantist?

3. I think it is idea, an illusion of course, that Orthodoxy seeks to pursue that false union in a way that is suggestive that they don't really want to compromise but to bring a greater presence of fidelity to Tradition to the heterodox. Many of my practising W.O. friends still believe that Ecumenist Orthodoxy stands opposed to the errors of the heterodox, when in truth, they have no sincere or genuine desire, much less an intention to make an effort towards, converting the heterodox from their errors. So, the Sedevacantists might entertain the idea of joining World ORthodoxy imagining that it is a refuge of Traditional Faith, when it is not.

4. Agreed, but the problems is that there are so many distractions, decoys, and detractors with destructive deductions that devilishly detour the dedicated would be disciple that they do not detect to what depth they must do due diligence to decode the deceptive doctrines of the decade. Hence they never find the spiritual harbour that is indeed that of the Genuine Orthodox Church. But with God all things are possible.

[Maria]

In conclusion, I pose these questions:

1. How can a sedevacantist "Catholic" remain in the Catholic Church when he acknowledges that the Roman Papal See has been vacant for decades?
2. How does he still consider himself a Catholic?
3. How can a sedevacantist Catholic join with World Orthodoxy, when World Orthodoxy seeks union with Rome and all the heterodox religions of the world?
4. Since Christ promised us that His Holy Spirit would be with us always (Matt. 28: 19-20), and since the Genuine Orthodox Church alone remains faithful to Christ's teachings, doesn't it behoove all men to look into this True Church which has preserved the Holy Faith undefiled?

Here is my kick at the can -- hope it is helpful:

1. It is the bulk of the Latin theological errors that they continue to accept that keep them bound to Roman Catholicism, even a "popeless" one. They feel the need to hold on to Catholicism in general, and so where would they go if those other errors remain recognized by them as errors? Hence, they remain as a lesser evil or less untenable choice that totally being "adrift at sea" -- that is, completely churchless.

2. Who is "He"? The present Pope? or the average Sedevacantist?

3. I think it is idea, an illusion of course, that Orthodoxy seeks to pursue that false union in a way that is suggestive that they don't really want to compromise but to bring a greater presence of fidelity to Tradition to the heterodox. Many of my practising W.O. friends still believe that Ecumenist Orthodoxy stands opposed to the errors of the heterodox, when in truth, they have no sincere or genuine desire, much less an intention to make an effort towards, converting the heterodox from their errors. So, the Sedevacantists might entertain the idea of joining World Orthodoxy imagining that it is a refuge of Traditional Faith, when it is not.

4. Agreed, but the problems is that there are so many distractions, decoys, and detractors with destructive deductions that devilishly detour the dedicated would be disciple that they do not detect to what depth they must do due diligence to decode the deceptive doctrines of the decade. Hence they never find the spiritual harbour that is indeed that of the Genuine Orthodox Church. But with God all things are possible.

#1 (see my comment below)
#2 I was describing the average Sedevacantist when I wrote, "How does he still consider himself a Catholic?" Actually, I do not think the pope considers himself to be Catholic any longer.
#3 Most of my practicing World Orthodoxy (W.O.) friends believe that they should stay and hold the fort, being told that they would sin if they abandoned ship and failed to be part of the solution. So they stay because they do not want to scandalize their brethren in W.O.. However, they stay and lose their faith by engaging in dissipative behaviors.
#4 I like your string of "d" words in #4. Alliterations.

Yes, I do believe that sedevacantism is the first step to True Orthodoxy. However, many sedevacantists live in the past and think that they can bring back a "true" pope if God will plant into the hearts of cardinals the true faith. In other words, they believe that the Roman Catholic Church is correct but only temporarily misled, so they stay with the Roman Church as they still accept Vatican I and the Council of Trent.

Sedevacantists still accept the papacy, only they do not accept the current lines of popes from John XXIII on. Some sedevacantists do not accept Pope Pius XII as a valid pope as the encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi was the document that encouraged Liturgical changes while pretending to oppose these changes. When I carefully read this lengthy encyclical a second and a third time, I too discovered this deception.

In my own journey to Holy Orthodoxy, I went further and could not accept Pius XII as a valid pope, then I looked at his Code of Canon Law of 1917, authored by Pius XII before he was elected pope. When I realized how he had changed the Holy Ancient Canons, I realized that the Roman Catholic C\hurch had anathamatized itself.

Then I realized that not only was Vatican I wrong, but also Council of Tren was wrong. From that point on, I realized\ that the Orthodox Church alone was preserving the Holy Faith once delivered by Christ-God to His Apostles for all peoples and for all times.

[Matthew]

#1 (see my comment below)
#2 I was describing the average Sedevacantist when I wrote, "How does he still consider himself a Catholic?" Actually, I do not think the pope considers himself to be Catholic any longer.

I think it helps them to consider themselves Catholic for two reasons at least that I can think of: the believe the extreme form of "development of Religion" that to some degree but more cautiously put forward by John Henry Cardinal Newman. This allows them to accept the constant "updating" of the faith, and to an increasing degree this notion is being accepted among W.O. followers. They insist that no dogmatic changes have ever been made, which is absurd. Secondly, the sedevacantists are less alarmed and not clued in to the utter breach of apostolic succession that has occurred in Roman Catholicism, I think because there is much in Catholicism that looks Catholic, even in the watered down Novus Ordo, and they also have Tridentine Masses to go to if they wish, they have old buildings, they ascribe to sacramentality and the list goes on, and in comparison the world around them they feel like they are not THAT bad off, and so there is present here the sort of minimalism concept that strings the heretics together at the WCC, and the Sedevacantists have not remained unaffected by this societal zeitgeist.

#3 Most of my practicing World Orthodoxy (W.O.) friends believe that they should stay and hold the fort, being told that they would sin if they abandoned ship and failed to be part of the solution. So they stay because they do not want to scandalize their brethren in W.O.. However, they stay and lose their faith by engaging in dissipative behaviors

And that is another thing. "I have Orthodoxy [or authentic Catholicism] in myself. I have not fallen, so I do not need to leave." Not realizing that "we are what the weakest among our bishops are". Also they do not understand any longer that heresy DRIVES OUT GRACE. Nobody believes that anymore, or even if they say it does, they say it takes more than 90 years of communion with it, and/or that the time allowable before grace departs is theoretically infinite as long as a General Council has not been called to formally name the heretics and their heresies, for only once that has been done does grace depart. Balderdash! IF that were true, then we should never have called any Ecumenical Council of the Church because then so many more souls would have been saved because all they need is for them not to be condemned or anathematized and they will have access to soul saving graces! And their spiritual children down through the centuries including protestantism would not be outside the Church either! And besides, if One council can anathematize heretics and their errors, then as we are already beginning to see with the so called lifting of the anathemas, "by rights" a future council can un-anathematize them without them making any changes or recantations! How LOvely!

Yes, I do believe that sedevacantism is the first step to True Orthodoxy. However, many sedevacantists live in the past and think that they can bring back a "true" pope if God will plant into the hearts of cardinals the true faith. In other words, they believe that the Roman Catholic Church is correct but only temporarily misled, so they stay with the Roman Church as they still accept Vatican I and the Council of Trent.

Sedevacantists still accept the papacy, only they do not accept the current lines of popes from John XXIII on. Some sedevacantists do not accept Pope Pius XII as a valid pope as the encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi was the document that encouraged Liturgical changes while pretending to oppose these changes. When I carefully read this lengthy encyclical a second and a third time, I too discovered this deception.

Yes, anyone familiar with Roman love of clouding the truth with run-on logic and sentences and complex syntax and million-dollar vocabulary, and distortion of or ignoring of historical facts or patristic texts, will know that this same method and tactic of obfuscation of the Apostolic Truth is now being practised among World Orthodoxy's seminarians, scholars, and clergy. They are drinking the Papal Coolaid...and loving it! to quote my friend Maxwell Smart.

In my own journey to Holy Orthodoxy, I went further and could not accept Pius XII as a valid pope, then I looked at his Code of Canon Law of 1917, authored by Pius XII before he was elected pope. When I realized how he had changed the Holy Ancient Canons, I realized that the Roman Catholic C\hurch had anathamatized itself.Then I realized that not only was Vatican I wrong, but also Council of Tren was wrong. From that point on, I realized\ that the Orthodox Church alone was preserving the Holy Faith once delivered by Christ-God to His Apostles for all peoples and for all times.

That is how I woke up. When I finally realised that there can be no argument, that any argument that concludes with what is tantamount to an overthrow of any part of the Creed, then there has to be something fundamentally wrong and false with that argument. I don't need to read Orthodox Ecumenist doctoral theses by the score to figure out that they are liars or deceived deceivers. Anyone who knows the Creed and knows the patristic interpretation and application of the words of the Creed at the practical level, will know that anyone who teaches differently is a heretic and outside the Church and that, after the first and second admonition, if he will not repent, we should cut him off from the communion of the Church. Hence, because of "The Church can be and IS divided" heresy so pervasive today, we see that the Church of Christ and genuine Mysteries remain only within the walls of the Genuine Orthodox Church.

[Maria]

St. Athanasius wrote this letter during the time when Arius was saying that there was a time when Christ Jesus was not God. At that time, more than 80 percent of the Bishops were heretical and following Arius.

(Coll. selecta SS. Eccl. Patrum, Caillau and Guillou, Vol. 32, pp. 411-412)

May God console you! ... What saddens you ... is the fact that others have occupied the Churches by violence, while during this time you are on the outside. It is a fact that they have the premises---but you have the Apostolic Faith. They can occupy our Churches, but they are outside the True Faith. You remain outside the places of worship, but the Faith dwells within you. Let us consider: what is more important, the place or the Faith? The True Faith, obviously. Who has lost and who has won in this struggle---the one who keeps the premises or the one who keeps the Faith?

True, the premises are good when the Apostolic Faith is preached there; they are holy if everything takes place there in a holy way…

You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis.

No one, ever, will prevail against your faith, beloved brothers. And we believe that God will give us our Churches back some day.

Thus, the more violently they try to occupy the places of worship, they more they separate themselves from the Church. They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from tit and going astray.

Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the True Church of Jesus Christ.

[Cyprian]

Thank you Maria for your well-spoken testimony. Not ever having been a Roman Catholic myself, I found the history you provided informative and enlightening.