Ecumenistic Intercommunion among Orthodox and Roman Catholics

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Matthew
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Re: Ecumenistic Intercommunion among Orthodox and Roman Catholics

Post by Matthew »

Barbara wrote:

Are you sure that Calvin also acknowledged the Ever-Virginity of Our Heavenly Queen ? I think it was only Luther who did...Luther was not as radical as Calvin was in rejecting ALL the tenets of the Catholic Church. Calvin was extreme.

Yes, Calvin did hold to some very Catholic doctrinal truths, which the vast majority of his spiritual spawn later renounced as heresy, and the Evervirginity of Mary is one of them:

Calvin argues that in Matthew 1:25 ("[Joseph] knew her [Mary] not till she had brought forth her firstborn son") the term "firstborn" and the conjunction "till" do not contradict the doctrine of perpetual virginity, but the Bible does not tell us what happened to Mary afterwards.[3]

At the same time, Calvin argues that the claims that Mary took a vow of perpetual virginity in Luke 1:34 ("How shall this be, since I know not a man?") is "unfounded and altogether absurd," and moreover he says that, had she taken such a vow, "[s]he would, in that case, have committed treachery by allowing herself to be united to a husband, and would have poured contempt on the holy covenant of marriage...."[4] Although Algermissen suggests that Calvin believed that Mary in this verse looked into the future and recognized, that in light of this special grace, any contact with a man would be excluded for her,[5] this interpretation takes an objection Calvin is refuting in his commentary and makes it his own position.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calv ... _virginity

And again:

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apo ... l/mary.htm

And again, Calvin believed we ought to venerate the Virgin Mary:

Veneration of Mary[edit]
Calvin had genuine respect for Mary and saw her as a model for faith. "To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son". The genuine respect for Mary in Calvin's writing, and his attempt to express his Marian convictions to the faithful of his day in his explanations of the epistles is not fully known or shared by Reformed Protestants after John Calvin.[19]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calv ... on_of_Mary

And other reformation fathers had similar views. Witness the words of Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12 Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."16 http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apo ... l/mary.htm

As for Luther, perhaps the Reformer least opposed to the honours the Church gives to the Virgin Mary, he ascribed to her ever-virginity, and veneration, and -- at least in the last sermon he ever preached at Wittenburg, he said that it was not entirely unfitting to ask her to hear our petitions:

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."6 Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apo ... l/mary.htm

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Barbara
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Re: Ecumenistic Intercommunion among Orthodox and Roman Catholics

Post by Barbara »

Your research is excellent, Matthew !
I had no idea about how far the followers of these 2 - one might call them narcissists - changed the ideas of the founders.

Did this process occur quickly ? Or took some time ? And WHY did the followers pursue such a stark interpretation ?
We all know how contemporary Protestants and evangelicals mock the Catholic devotion to Our Lady and never tire of airing their disparagement of 'the idolators'. I am not sure what the Lutherans of today say on this subject, but they seem to have no ideas or backbone.

Matthew
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Re: Ecumenistic Intercommunion among Orthodox and Roman Catholics

Post by Matthew »

These are questions that I suppose to find an answer to which would take far more time than would be worth spending. It is enough to know that they are outside the Apostolic Church, have distorted the perennial teachings of the Holy Fathers, and have abandoned both Christ and salvation in their pride and presumption, insisting on their obscure and novel readings of Scripture. It is not good to be overly curious about the inner workings of the minds of heretics.

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Barbara
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Re: Ecumenistic Intercommunion among Orthodox and Roman Catholics

Post by Barbara »

Good answer. Indeed that my attitude, too. That's why I was so hazy on the 2 breakaways and their specific ideas : I feel leery of knowing much of anything about them. Agree, it is a thorough waste of one's brainpower to focus on them at all !
It can pull one down to read about their incorrect notions, fed to them by the Devil. There are so many constructive topics on which to put our attention, which are inspiring. Opposite to subjects pertaining to these 'sour grapes' figures.

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Jean-Serge
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Re: Ecumenistic Intercommunion among Orthodox and Roman Catholics

Post by Jean-Serge »

Here, in France, there are cases of intercommunion that can be proved in some instances and others, that I heard about :

1° many people asserts that Olivier Clément communed at least once in the catholic church

2° in this conference, the rector of a French-sepeaking parish of the Russian exarchate of Constantinople said that sometimes, he gave communion to non orthodx when his heart inclined him to do so

http://stjeansanfrancisco.pafeos.org/spip.php?article46 (the recording can be downloaded, it is in French)

3° in a Greek-speaking parish of Grenoble, the priest used to give communion to the non orthodox spouse. A new priest stopped the practice, which raised protests against him.

Monseigneur Mélétios, monseigneur Vlassios dans sa foulée, ou monseigneur Jérémie, essayaient de mettre en pratique ce discernement. Ils estimaient que les couples mixtes ne devaient pas souffrir des divisions des Églises. Que la paix des ménages et l'épanouissement des enfants était supérieur aux querelles de religions. Prenant acte du fait que les Églises ne rebaptisent pas, ils ont autorisé (ou parfois simplement laissé faire) l'intercommunion dans les couples mixtes

.

Source : http://amisdelacommunautehelleniquedely ... union.html

4° in the same parish, a priest used to give it to an old catholic lady living in a retirement home near the church that was too weak to go to a catholic church.

Il y avait une vieille dame, dans la maison de retraite qui est face à l'église, qui venait assister à la liturgie. Cette vieille dame était catholique mais était trop fragile pour aller dans son église. Elle rassemblait parfois ses dernières forces pour traverser la rue, assister à l'office et communier. D'un point de vue canonique, les Églises catholiques et orthodoxes ne sont pas en communion depuis le XIème siècle. D'un point de vue purement rigoriste, elle ne pouvait donc pas communier chez nous. Pourtant, le père Athanase ne disait rien : il voyait tous les sacrifices que cette vieille dame faisait pour traverser cette rue, toute sa bonne volonté et toute sa foi, et il lui donnait la communion.

Source : http://amisdelacommunautehelleniquedely ... odoxe.html

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

Matthew
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Re: Ecumenistic Intercommunion among Orthodox and Roman Catholics

Post by Matthew »

The tragedy is that most people don't realise that once both the RCC and the World Orthodox mutually recognised each other's baptisms as one and the same in form and grace, that was a defacto union as real as had the Pope and Patriarch of Constantinople concelebrated, making the actions of these priests much more consistent than those that seek to maintain the charade that "union has not happened yet and is somewhere off in the future".

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Barbara
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Re: Ecumenistic Intercommunion among Orthodox and Roman Catholics

Post by Barbara »

I looked at the website of that St Jean de San Francisco paroisse and the first thing I saw in the margin was an announcement about the Association of Orthodox Christians in dialogue with the Jews being invited to a synagogue on rue Copernic 13 December 2016 to celebrate hanukah. Must have meant 2015.

I have never heard of such a movement ! I am shocked. This reveals how way far liberal is this jurisdiction.

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