What is the price to pay for possible UOC-KP canonicity?

Feel free to tell our little section of the Internet why you're right. Forum rules apply.


Post Reply
Photinia
Newbie
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat 28 November 2015 11:17 am

What is the price to pay for possible UOC-KP canonicity?

Post by Photinia »

Can the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kiev Patriarchate (UOC KP) be recognized as canonical? And what is the price to pay?

For 23 years the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchat has been trying to achieve the recognition and to consolidate the Ukrainan believers. Finally, in September the Convocation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople gave the hope for soon resolution of this issue.
During the meeting, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew discussed with Metropolitan Anthony (Szczerba) and Yuri (Kalischuk), Bishops Daniel (Zelinsky), Hilarion (Rudyk) and Andrew (Peshko) the position of Orthodoxy in Ukraine and clearly indicated that the division can be overcome only under the patronage and mediation of Constantinople. (http://simvol-veri.ru/xp/patriarx-varfo ... -mire.html)

Besides, American billionaire and philanthropist G.Soros met the head of information division and the permanent member of the Holy Synod of the UOC KP Eustratius (Zorya) during his visit to Kiev. Many users of social networks and forums assumed that the subject of their conversation could be the attitude to LGBTI in Ukraine. It was noted that Mr. Soros could suggest assistance in obtaining the canonical status of the UOC KP in a response to mitigation of the church's position regarding sexual minorities and legal protection of their rights. Indeed, archbishop Eustratius hadn't spoken a word about the "sexual orientation" and "gender identity" as legal concepts since the meeting till assumptions became viral! (http://www.logoslovo.ru/forum/all_1/top ... /#comments)

Moreover, some Ukrainian Orthodox Christians have apprehension of Eustratius Zorya's possible appointment as Kiev Patriarch instead of Filaret. And the validity of these concerns was confirmed by the fact that the meeting with the representative of the UOC KP was appointed by Soros not by chance, but on the recommendation of Constantinople Patriarchate Metropolitan of Prussia (Constantinople Patriarchate) Elpidofor Lambriniadis. This is the reason why I appeal to all believers with the question: can the church which hierarchs are ready to bargain on the commandments be canonically recognized?

Image

Me as a parishioner of the UOC KP concerns that the cost of making my church under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople may be accommodation to the spread of ungodly way of life and the destruction of the traditional values of our society. Where is the good of such the canonicity if Constantinople Patriarch or his clerics go with the sponsors of sodomist communities?

Excuse me if I chose inappropriate topic, but it really concerns me so I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

Matthew
Protoposter
Posts: 1812
Joined: Sat 21 January 2012 12:04 am

Re: What is the price to pay for possible UOC-KP canonicity?

Post by Matthew »

Dear Photinia,

First, let me welcome you to this forum. This forum exists mainly as a meeting place for Traditional Orthodox Christians who believe that there is a serious crisis of genuine apostolic faith and a loss of a true christian confession among the Orthodox Churches in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate (EP) and the Moscow Patriarchate (MP). Indeed there are a very great number of concerned traditionally minded Orthodox believers within the Churches that are in communion with the EP and MP (which we generally refer to at this forum as "World Orthodoxy"), and we would not want to fail to point out that they are many very good people in the State Orthodox Churches to whom we owe much respect. However, your question can really only be answered by most of us on this site in the negative; that is, that the status of any Orthodox Jurisdiction in the communion of World Orthodoxy is uncanonical, and indeed, that they fall short of maintaining an authentic Orthodox dogmatic confession. So, if the UOC-KP is entering into communion with the EP, even if there was no "homosexual Issue" to worry about, it would still have to be viewed as uncanonical.

The most obvious proof of the uncanonical state of all World Orthodoxy is seen in how Saint Mark of Ephesus, declared a "pillar of Orthodoxy" along with Saints Gregory Palamas and Photius the Great, is still commemorated in World Orthodoxy as a true and great saint, but World Orthodoxy (in both their actions and official declarations about the Roman Catholics) has entirely rejected and contradicted St. Mark of Ephesus, that is, the basis upon which he was recognized by the Church as a saint, namely for saving Orthodoxy from falling into communion with heresy and being made as graceless as the Roman Catholics. He himself declared, "The Latins are not only schismatics but heretics… we did not separate from them for any other reason other than the fact that they are heretics. This is precisely why we must not unite with them unless they dismiss the addition from the Creed filioque and confess the Creed as we do." [see: http://www.orthodoxchurchquotes.com/tag/schism/].

Yet we see that the entire worldwide communion lead by the Ecumencial Patriarch of Constantinople for 50 years has accepted, either officially or by their silence and inaction, the so-called "lifting of the Anathemas" by Pope Paul the Sixth and EP Athenagoras in 1965. What we must understand is that the attempt to bring the Kievan Patriarchate into the embrace of the EP and the question of the membership of active members of a sexually deviant subculture in the Orthodox Church is really an unnecessary question since the EP and those in communion with them have really rendered themselves uncanonical and heretical (at least) 50 years ago [though personally I would put it back to 1924 -- 91 years ago in adopting the papal menaion] when they contradicted the saints and fathers of the Orthodox Church of the past 1000 years who all clearly spoke about the heretical nature of the Roman Catholic Church. What will make an Orthodox Church uncanonical is not simply "the homosexual issue", but the older dogmatic changes made in 1924 and 1965 where Roman Catholic errors were accepted as part of the Orthodox confession of faith.

If the anathemas were declared against the Latins on a question of dogmatic violations (heresies) then no council can "lift the anathema" against the Roman Catholics while they still hold onto their false teachings. One cannot "lift an anathema" any more than one can "lift" a dogma of the Creed of the Church. The only one who has the authority and power to lift an anathema against someone is the heretic himself, by abandoning his heresy and adopting the confession of the Church and joining her in repentence. The anathema only ceases to apply when the heresy is no longer present.

What the Orthodox did in 1965 when they declared that the Catholic Church is no longer under anathema, was not that the Catholics ceased to be heretics, but that the Orthodox had adopted an entirely different dogmatic position such that they declared what were, in olden times, dogmas of the faith, to be presently no more dogmas of the faith and therefore the Catholics were not longer heretics and under anathema. Why do I say this? Simply because the Catholics have not changed anything in their heretical doctrines since 1054, but in fact, have since added to them these other errors: immaculate conception of Mary, limbo, purgatory, and papal infallibility.

When the Latins were anathematized in 1054 these later errors (formalized in the 19th century) were not even considered, and when St Mark saved the Church from entering into communion with the Pope "for no other reason than that they are heretics," they had not even added several of these new very serious errors. So really, the lifting of the anathemas was a declaration of the World Orthodox having fallen from a truly Orthodox Dogmatic Confession and adopting a heretical one. So indeed, most of us here at Euphrosynos Cafe Forum would say that the EP and, if your Church enters into mutual recognition with them, would indeed not be canonical, but this outcome was determined long before this new issue of opening the doors of the Church to the homosexual community became even remotely considered. I hope that clarifies how some of us here would view the information that you posted. Finally, I ask your forgiveness if I have been unclear or not been sufficiently charitable in my tone. I tend to be direct which sometimes can sound like unkindness, but this is not my heart at all. I welcome everyone and enjoy charitable discussion about the Truth and that I seek to learn from everyone here.

By the mercy of God,
Matthew

User avatar
Daniel76
Newbie
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu 3 December 2015 2:30 am
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada

Re: What is the price to pay for possible UOC-KP canonicity?

Post by Daniel76 »

Anyway, the real Ukrainian Church is the Russian Church, both Ukrainians, Russians and Belorussians have her the Mother Church. "Ukrainian" jurisdiction was made by anti-Orthodox intelligent services and nationalists.

Matthew
Protoposter
Posts: 1812
Joined: Sat 21 January 2012 12:04 am

Re: What is the price to pay for possible UOC-KP canonicity?

Post by Matthew »

Daniel76 wrote:

Anyway, the real Ukrainian Church is the Russian Church, both Ukrainians, Russians and Belorussians have her the Mother Church. "Ukrainian" jurisdiction was made by anti-Orthodox intelligent services and nationalists.

Dear Daniel,
On behalf of everyone on Euphrosynos Cafe, let me first welcome you to our forum. I know I speak for all the regulars on here when I say that we hope that you will enjoy your time in discussing various topics with us. Everyone has something valuable to contribute, and doubtless this is true in your case. As touching the point that the Ukrainian Church is, properly speaking, an organic part of the Russian Orthodox Church when we consider the historical origins of the Orthodox in Ukraine, this is certainly true. Indeed the ancient capital of Russia is in Ukraine. However, we could even go further and make the case that since the Russian Church was founded by Greek Orthodox then the "real Russian Church is the Greek Church." And if we go back further again, we could say the Greek Church is really the Jerusalem Patriarchate - the Palestinian [or ancient Israeli] Orthodox Church, since every Orthodox Church in the world has the Church in Jerusalem as it's Mother. So, I am not really sure why you are making the case that the "real" Ukrainian Church is the Russian Church, when, in all fairness, it seems to me that the home of original Russian Orthodoxy was founded not in Moscow, but in Kievan Rus by the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Nevertheless, geography or even the pedigree of historical lineage is not the final determiner of authenticity or canonicity--as I explained above; but to be in communion solely with those Churches that have not confessed heresy, and neither are they in communion with those who have. The Holy Fathers and the councils of the Church are beyond question on this point: heresy drives out grace and one cannot retain grace when maintaining communion with known heretics. So, really, I think the foundational question from which all discussion on this thread's topic can be resolved hangs on how one answers the following question: How is the Moscow Patriarchate (MP) still Orthodox and the rightful authority of the Orthodox in Ukraine, if the MP has accepted (as have all World Orthodox Churches around the planet) the Ecumenical Patriarchate's "Lifting of the Anathemas" in 1965 against the Latin Heretics?

As I said above, this act was a heretical act, because Dogmas cannot be lifted. The "lifting" occurred not because of a dogmatic correction in the Latin Church but because of a dogmatic change in the Orthodox Church that accepts this so-called "lifting". Those who reject this sacreligious act remain Orthodox, those who accept or tolerate it have ceased to be Orthodox--hence, they are no longer the "mother church" of anyone in any real authoritative sense, but only in the historical sense.

User avatar
Barbara
Protoposter
Posts: 4464
Joined: Sat 29 September 2012 6:03 pm

Re: What is the price to pay for possible UOC-KP canonicity?

Post by Barbara »

Indeed, welcome to both Photinia and Daniel76 ! Very pleased to have you here.

The bargaining of which Photinia speaks in her post above is frightening to me, nonetheless. It is a terrible indicator of the way ahead maybe for most all factions of World Orthodoxy. That meddling of Soros into ecclesiastical domains of Ukraine, Russia and who knows WHERE else is so dismaying. What else have he and his fellow travelers done in this vein ?

Now - what in the world was the international magnate doing have lunch on Friday, November 13 with Mikhail Saakashvili -- 'governor of Odessa oblast' ?
Has the former head of Georgia been appointed to a new job in a different land by Soros and his cronies ? I didn't look this up on wikipedia to check it. But that item on the agenda is eyebrow-raising as well as the trading off of silence on a key pillar of Orthodox morality [ firmly anti-homosexual ] for recognition of the UOC-KP.

User avatar
Barbara
Protoposter
Posts: 4464
Joined: Sat 29 September 2012 6:03 pm

Re: What is the price to pay for possible UOC-KP canonicity?

Post by Barbara »

Photinia,

You know volumes more than I do about this topic. One small correction, however : you described Met Elpidophoros Lambriniadis as Metropolitan of "Prussia".
No. Prussia was the name of what is roughly eastern Germany. Prussia was famous for its disciplined and powerful military, especially under Frederick the Great but right up through the unification of the German states after 1870.

The EP Met is actually "of Bursa", a city in Turkey with beautiful natural healing springs. The confusion is because the old name of Bursa was "Prusa". Perhaps some Greeks still employ that term.

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8428
Joined: Fri 11 June 2004 8:39 pm
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: What is the price to pay for possible UOC-KP canonicity?

Post by Maria »

I have moved a very good post from Irene into our Inquiring into Orthodoxy forum.
Please take the time to read and respond to it as Irene ask many excellent questions.

http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 33&t=11542

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Post Reply