AshleyMadison Cheaters' site users made public

[Barbara]

You write that people who divorce are often embittered. Surely so, from what I have read in the last few years ! I had no idea about that entire process previous to reading many accounts of infuriated women, mostly, and a few men too expressed their anger and frustration with "disordered" wives. By the way I just can't stand that term "ex", as in "My ex said that..."
It trivializes the marriage and the person so much.

Anyway, the only REAL way to get the fury out of one's system is to throw oneself into a meritorious project. Especially where one SEES the progress, such as painting a new Chapel or weeding a garden. Why ? Because the marriage may have lent itself to great frustration which, bottled up forever, would cause SERIOUS difficulties. Health matters, irritable behavior and worse. I was reading about the literal "panic attacks", I guess they are called ?, where the person goes crazy at the tiniest cue.
It's all that pent-up anger at the disordered spouse. I am talking about this sort of case particularly. A 'cheater' would SURELY be what is lumped together as "disordered", covering the full range from sociopath to what I might label 'damaging narcissist' instead of the popular term 'malignant narcissist' which describes better what that person's problem is, to borderline to histrionic, etc. Usually 2 or more of these are combined in the same person, leading to an intolerable living situation for the non-disordered spouse.

Many women, for that is who mainly reports their experiences, long for calm and peace. But don't know how to find it because this society can only offer Fake Buddhism, chanting, 'meditating', use of crystals, etc.

Why not get them into a really constructive spiritual situation where if not an actual monastic, they can work as a layperson at the new skete ?? Or support it financially. But better if they are involved themselves as well, to work out that acute anger & frustration. The urge to talk will dim as visible progress occurs : a new building going up, a fence being built around the cloister [ I was regarding a pic of the wood fence around Old Shamordino with a sharp eye ! ], cows to take care of, etc.

[Maria]

Do you see how far Modernism and Ecumenism has affected even monasticism?

Monastic rules should not be modified.

This is why it is good to be having this discussion in here as this might be considered to be arguing.

I have known quite a few divorced persons, and the division of property, including pets, takes a toll on the lives all around them. Mother-in-laws, father-in-laws, aunts, uncles, and cousins also get into the fray. With children, the situation is particularly nasty. Children are shuffled between the warring ex-spouses, and this is never good. A formerly married person will of course be worried about the children they leave behind and their woes if they were to enter monasticism. Look at the number of married, widowed, divorced adult children and grandchildren who are past 30 and who have moved in with their parents, grandparents, or in-laws. If a divorced person were to enter a monastery, and leave behind children, it could be difficult.

I knew some novices in a California monastery who had to leave to take care of their elderly parents. Met. Jonah, formerly of the OCA, and now in the ROCOR, must take care of his elderly and infirm mother.

Now consider, that a divorced person, not only has elderly and infirm parents, but also adult children and grandchildren. This presents a huge burden to them and to the monastery to which they belong.

[Barbara]

[I didn't see your answer until just now.]

Sure, I agree, Maria. It's better to battle these topics out between ourselves in private so the world isn't privy to the problems brought up.

I see it differently> though I think you are much more in touch with the realities than I. I did not think of this point about the elderly parents. It's a vital point, I agree.

But it depends on the person. Many parents have long ago gone to their rewards [or other ! ] which means not all aspirants to the monastic life would have that as a consideration.

Then, adult children usually are on their own. They can write to their mother or father in the monastery. Or if having permission from the Abbot, can visit in person once in awhile.

My experience is quite different in this case. I read all the time about problems of divorced parents, not because it interests me. But it comes into the psychology of the spouse who was a narcissist or sociopath or similar disordered condition.
So I am familiar with the heartbreaking turf wars in which spouses who are acrimonious in any way - not needing to be full blown psychopaths - can engage. One party gets vindictive and demands all sorts of ridiculous things that he or she doesn't need. But only wants to harm the spouse.

You're right ! I only really recently realized that even beloved pets can be fought over, too. How ridiculous is that ??

The point to which I am getting is that we are not in the America of the 1950s. A lot of the younger generations have their own serious mental or emotional problems. Hence, many don't speak with their parents or with one parent at all.

There is a term called "parental alienation" becoming more widespread. I believe this means that one parents strives to turn the child or children against the other parent - for no reasonable justification. Just spite.

With this and much else brewing in a tumultuous pot of stew, we have to conclude that it is not as frequent as it used to be that parents NEED to be around for adult children. Sometimes the children have spitefully shouted that they don't want any contact with their parent [s].

So we can't stop a budding monastery from gathering members because of THIS fear !
In the cases where it is a problem, there will be solutions.

With God, there is always a solution !

But if the same men or women are endeavoring to do something wrong, like run away with a new affair [which happens WAY too much all over the place today], naturally God will NOT help that work out ! Only when they are trying to work for Him will He intervene to smooth rough matters over.

[Maria]

[I didn't see your answer until just now.]

Sure, I agree, Maria. It's better to battle these topics out between ourselves in private so the world isn't privy to the problems brought up.

I see it differently> though I think you are much more in touch with the realities than I. I did not think of this point about the elderly parents. It's a vital point, I agree.

But it depends on the person. Many parents have long ago gone to their rewards [or other ! ] which means not all aspirants to the monastic life would have that as a consideration.

Then, adult children usually are on their own. They can write to their mother or father in the monastery. Or if having permission from the Abbot, can visit in person once in awhile.

My experience is quite different in this case. I read all the time about problems of divorced parents, not because it interests me. But it comes into the psychology of the spouse who was a narcissist or sociopath or similar disordered condition.
So I am familiar with the heartbreaking turf wars in which spouses who are acrimonious in any way - not needing to be full blown psychopaths - can engage. One party gets vindictive and demands all sorts of ridiculous things that he or she doesn't need. But only wants to harm the spouse.

You're right ! I only really recently realized that even beloved pets can be fought over, too. How ridiculous is that ??

The point to which I am getting is that we are not in the America of the 1950s. A lot of the younger generations have their own serious mental or emotional problems. Hence, many don't speak with their parents or with one parent at all.

There is a term called "parental alienation" becoming more widespread. I believe this means that one parents strives to turn the child or children against the other parent - for no reasonable justification. Just spite.

With this and much else brewing in a tumultuous pot of stew, we have to conclude that it is not as frequent as it used to be that parents NEED to be around for adult children. Sometimes the children have spitefully shouted that they don't want any contact with their parent [s].

So we can't stop a budding monastery from gathering members because of THIS fear !
In the cases where it is a problem, there will be solutions.

With God, there is always a solution !

But if the same men or women are endeavoring to do something wrong, like run away with a new affair [which happens WAY too much all over the place today], naturally God will NOT help that work out ! Only when they are trying to work for Him will He intervene to smooth rough matters over.

Both widows, widowers and those who have been divorced bring their baggage into monasticism and the hierarchy. Only a few years ago, a widowed bishop in the OCA was getting too involved with a young catechumen in one of his parishes. Anyway, she lived quite a distance from this bishop, so he was forcefully retired after he asked if he could spend the night with her rather than staying at a hotel or at the priest's residence. This made the talk at Monomakos.com. This is one good reason why laity should not correspond with their hierarch, but leave that to the priest of the parish.

The OCA has been known for relaxing the rules of their monastics.

The New Skete is notorious for all their changes in monasticism. I will not go into that in much detail, but they even have married couples who live a semi-monastic life. That is always a danger. True stories have been told of men and women who have decided to enter respective monasteries, but when one spouse decides that he/she cannot live that life and quits to live a life of debauchery and apostasy, the other might have already taken vows. Do you see the problems here?

Two OCA monasteries for women in California have relaxed the rules to allow for ceaseless chattering with no monastic silence. This is foolhardy. Many of their monastics are older women. How can one contemplate God with endless chatter going on all around them.

I was in a monastery for three years, and yes, the rule of silence was difficult to follow. It was surprising what was expected of us:
No talking unless absolutely necessary, except during the one hour of recreation per day which followed the evening supper.
Absolute Silence with no noise of any kind following Compline until after the Morning Prayers and Divine Liturgy in the morning.
Walking quietly and not running.
No sliding down the banisters.
No telling jokes.
No laughing.
No singing, except in the church or chapel.
Gotta watch singing in the showers, so we only were allowed one shower/bath per week unless we were sick.
No loud clanging of dishes when doing kitchen duty. Dishes were washed without making noise.
Food was cooked without clanging the spoons in the pans. Wooden spoons were preferred for that purpose.
Bread pans were placed silently in the oven. It was incredible how silent the kitchen was.
No dragging of chairs, but quietly picking them up, or using a towel underneath the legs when moving furniture.
At night, so as not to break the silence, we could not use the toilets unless we were sick. We had a bowl, pitcher of hot water, and pail for personal hygiene in our cell. We would clean ourselves every evening using baking soda and water, and then add that grey water to the pail, which was emptied promptly in the morning after Divine Liturgy. In early Christianity until more recent times, this "night soil" was added to the compost pile and later used to fertilize the garden, grape vines, olive trees, etc. (Royalty and the wealthy had chambermaids who regularly cleaned these chamber buckets.)

[Barbara]

Fascinating ! I am coming back to read tomorrow, God willing.