jgress wrote:I don't agree with you about human strength. The strength to endure long fasts, pray unceasingly and endure torture and death for the faith is not natural to fallen humans. It comes from God. So a strong faith and humility are essential from the beginning. We can't achieve salvation by our own efforts, but only by God's grace. Therefore the ONLY path lies through obedience.
Yes, I agree, it is potentially unlimited thanks to God's grace. I wanted to add this too. But God's grace comes with the concept of synergy that says that God add his grace to your efforts, depending on them (no pain, no gain), depending on your virtues, on your life and globally all the good works you do are made thanks to God (see commentary for the Sunday of the Pharisian and Publican attributed to Saint John Chrysosotom). To quote the Elder Siluan of the Athos : "God gives the prayer to the one who prays", which expresses the concept of synergy. But I am far from unceasing prayer and so on!
The idea I have of obedience is a bit different. I was never requested blind obedience when I joined True orthodoxy first with ROCIE (2005). The notion of blind obedience where sometimes the abba gives stupid things to do (or that seems stupid) is typical to monastic places. There was also a sort of idea that they were no longer spiritual fathers, but it can be a problem of language because by "spiritual father", some people think confessor, other staretz (like Saint Seraphin, so a real living saint) and finally nobody knows exactly what is the scope of the job of the relationship, blind obedience or taking advice? This is why I feel entirely OK with the idea of having wise advisors, the fact that you use the word "obedience" troubles me a bit. From what I observed, we were never in a situation of abdicating our will but in the situation of receiving advice from the confessor; he was not a dictator requiring obedience. What I always heard that grace came in addition to one's efforts (synergy) but due to the simple fact of obeying, never. Any source, out of monastic context?
I am also very cautious with which would be a mistaken notion of spiritual fatherhood, in particular with total obedience, due to the 2 quotations below from here:
Elder Makarios of Optina Monastery : "It is certainly a great consolation, and a great help on the way, to find a director under whose wise guidance our will is cured of self-will, our mind of self-regard. But in these days, it is most difficult to find one."
Bishop Ignatios Brianchaninov, cautioned those in his care: "Conceited and self-opinionated people love to teach and give directions. They are not concerned as to the value of their advice. It does not occur to them that they can cause irreparable damage to their neighbor by their misguided advice, which is taken by an inexperienced beginner with irresponsible confidence ... . They want to make an impression on the beginner, and subject him morally to themselves. They want human praise. They want to be reputed saints, astute elders, teachers with spiritual insight. They want to nourish their insatiable vanity."
And naturally I gave no advice to people regarding their spiritual lives but simply tells a personal experience that people should not apply to themselves.
I hope there are no misunderstandings.
