On Headcoverings and Modesty of Women in Church

[Logos]

Paradosis,

I don't get the whole "it's evil to admire women" thing. Why do you think God made women so beautiful? I can look at a beautiful woman and not have images pop in my head of having sex with her. And let's say that that DOES happen. Is THAT in of itself evil? I don't think so. God put that mutual attraction in us.

Please understand that I do not mean that it is okay to look at pornography or any type of material where the images are purely sexual in nature and specifically geared toward appealing to the lustful side of our mortal body's.

But I can look at and appreciate the fine curves of a woman's body and not feel that I am sinning anymore than when I admire all the other beautufil things that the Lord has made.

Thank God for the ladies!

:mrgreen:

I agree with you TomS. There is nothing wrong with admiring a beautiful woman. Sexuality is a lot like eating. In other words, you can't turn off your sexual desire just like you cannot stop eating food. You have to control them.

[Logos]

What, hard to believe that women look too? We're not blind ya know.

Of course women look at men all of the time. We humans are visual creatures compared to other animals. People who don't believe that women don't "check guys out" are totally out of the loop when it comes to human nature.

[JohnMarq]

I am not refering to headgear or to the yarmulke -- a relatively modern innovation anyway -- what I was refering to was the talit or prayer shawl with the attached strings or fringes. See the following for the refernces to it: Num. 15:37-41, Lev. 19:19; Deut. 22:11

Ok, but I'm just wondering how to make the leap from the above to:

If one examines the Bible, one will find that God also told MEN to cover their heads when they pray.

You explained:

It is/was an ancient practice for Jews to cover their heads during prayer. This probably derived from the fact that in Eastern cultures, it is a sign of respect to cover the head. Thus, by covering the head during prayer, one showed respect for God. In addition, in ancient Rome, servants were required to cover their heads while free men did not; thus, Jews covered their heads to show that they were servants of God. In medieval times, Jews covered their heads as a reminder that God is always above them.

But even if this practice did develop in "ancient", ie post scripture, Talmudic times, how can one say that because of this, God told men (in scripture) to pray with covered heads?

-John

[Seraphim Reeves]

I don't get the whole "it's evil to admire women" thing. Why do you think God made women so beautiful? I can look at a beautiful woman and not have images pop in my head of having sex with her.

If someone was truly dispassionate, very little would move them. We should guard our eyes precisely because we are not dispassionate - even great saints did not entertain temptation by dwelling on exterior beauty.

Keep in mind Tom, St.Paul's words regarding "lawfulness", and be kind towards the weaknesses of others.

btw., I'm a lot like Justin in this regard, and probably most men in our overly sexualized culture. Lord have mercy.

And let's say that that DOES happen. Is THAT in of itself evil?

The thought itself is evil, yes. Resisting it is good, however (since we cannot always control what our imagination throws up into our interior vision.)

I don't think so. God put that mutual attraction in us.

Yes He has, but you cannot forget that we come into this world damaged (since the world itself is damaged.) One of the biggest social errors of our day, is the implicit denial of original sin which runs rampant in most social institutions - the idea that people, naturally, of their own power, are basically good, and that what "comes naturally" to people is in fact "natural".

But I can look at and appreciate the fine curves of a woman's body and not feel that I am sinning anymore than when I admire all the other beautufil things that the Lord has made.

I can play with pretty sparklers next to a gas station and probably get out fine, but I'm not about to try it.

Seraphim

[Methodius]

What, hard to believe that women look too? We're not blind ya know.

Of course women look at men all of the time. We humans are visual creatures compared to other animals. People who don't believe that women don't "check guys out" are totally out of the loop when it comes to human nature.

I think the point is that thankfully, much of mens clothing is modest. Not all, but more than womens. If I go to the mall, I will see a majority of the young women either wearing skin tight shirts, skirts or jeans, skirts that barely cover their buttocks, low necklines to show cleavage, cropped top shirts that expose the belly, pants so low that the hips show or something covering the chest that it only tied by shoestring width material in the back. Sadly you see girls as young as 7 or 8 wearing the exact same things!

These are fashions of the devil, surely!

Most young men I see are wearing loose fitting shorts or pants and a t-shirt or a button-down shirt over a tanktop or t-shirt. But I admit some young men do dress quite immodestly, it just seems to be more of a female problem.

[Miriam]

Seraphim Reeves wrote:
...and not every prejudice is bad. If we were, as a society, less tolerant, we probably would not be in the bad way that we are now. It's true, many social conventions can just be chauvenistic - but the idea that every intolerance and prejudice is "bad" is a modern fantasy, and one with no good argument behind it.

Webster's dictionary defines prejudice as follows:

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment -- more at JUDICIAL
Date: 13th century
1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
synonym see PREDILECTION

If we as Orthodox people are to avoid judgement, how can prejudice be a "good" thing?

[Logos]

I don't think so. God put that mutual attraction in us.

Yes He has, but you cannot forget that we come into this world damaged (since the world itself is damaged.) One of the biggest social errors of our day, is the implicit denial of original sin which runs rampant in most social institutions - the idea that people, naturally, of their own power, are basically good, and that what "comes naturally" to people is in fact "natural".

If the fall had not happened, would men and women still be attracted to each other? What do the holy fathers say about this? Adam and Eve really screwed up things for humanity. They are the greatest failures in all of mankind.

But I can look at and appreciate the fine curves of a woman's body and not feel that I am sinning anymore than when I admire all the other beautufil things that the Lord has made.

I can play with pretty sparklers next to a gas station and probably get out fine, but I'm not about to try it.

Seraphim[/quote]

What about those of us who are single? Aren't we allowed to work? I love it when non-single people go on their high horses about this. I don't think there is anything wrong with admiring beautiful. If God wants to send me to hell for doing so, then so be it.