Theotokos or Mother of God or Godbearer or what?

[TomS]

needed Russian-ness attached to it.

I have no problem with some ethnicity remaining in the church, as long as it does not interfere with my worship or the ability to commune with my fellow Orthodox. In fact I enjoy the Greekness of my wife's family.

For example - titles and music -- I went to another more liberal GOA church a couple of weekends ago, and this priest no longer referred to Mary as "Theotokos" in all instances he changed it to Virgin Mary, or worse yet, Mother Mary. To me, the word Theotokos carries with it a meaning that just CAN'T be put into english well. And they also used an ORGAN during the liturgy. I felt like I was in a Protestant church. HATED IT!

I agree that we MUST keep the liberal and progressive Protestant element OUT of the church.

But there HAS to be a middle ground somewhere???

[Logos]

needed Russian-ness attached to it.

For example - titles and music -- I went to another more liberal GOA church a couple of weekends ago, and this priest no longer referred to Mary as "Theotokos" in all instances he changed it to Virgin Mary, or worse yet, Mother Mary. To me, the word Theotokos carries with it a meaning that just CAN'T be put into english well.

This is something that troubles me greatly to hear. Not calling Mary the Theotokos is a straying from the Orthodox teaching of her in my opinion. I think many American converts can handle an occasional Orthodox word like Theotokos or theosis or antidoron. To call marry something other than Theotokos is paving the way for disaster.

[Mor Ephrem]

needed Russian-ness attached to it.

For example - titles and music -- I went to another more liberal GOA church a couple of weekends ago, and this priest no longer referred to Mary as "Theotokos" in all instances he changed it to Virgin Mary, or worse yet, Mother Mary. To me, the word Theotokos carries with it a meaning that just CAN'T be put into english well.

This is something that troubles me greatly to hear. Not calling Mary the Theotokos is a straying from the Orthodox teaching of her in my opinion. I think many American converts can handle an occasional Orthodox word like Theotokos or theosis or antidoron. To call marry something other than Theotokos is paving the way for disaster.

Well, I agree that ad libbing a translation of Theotokos as "Virgin Mary" or "Mother Mary" is horrible and does not do justice to the meaning of the word and the doctrine it is conveying. But must Theotokos be used in the English language? Theotokos is used in the Greek language Liturgy because it is Greek, but if I'm not mistaken, a Slavonic word equivalent to Theotokos is used in the Slavonic language Liturgy, and not the word Theotokos itself. What would be the harm, for example, of substituting "Mother of God" for Theotokos?

[TomS]

But must Theotokos be used in the English language? Theotokos is used in the Greek language Liturgy because it is Greek, but if I'm not mistaken, a Slavonic word equivalent to Theotokos is used in the Slavonic language Liturgy, and not the word Theotokos itself. What would be the harm, for example, of substituting "Mother of God" for Theotokos?

Even in the English Liturgy at my church the word "Theotokos" is used.

Definition: "The prefix "Theo" means God and the word "tokos" means "carrier or bearer in the womb" (birth mother). Then, The Theotokos is the carrier or bearer of God in her womb (birth mother).

So "the God Bearer" would be the correct phrase in English.

That, to me, has MUCH more meaning than "Mother". I can RELATE to a Mother (no mystery there) -- but not to "The God Bearer". Now THERE is a mystery!

Maybe it's just me being too dogmatic. But I just think that there are some words that MUST stay in their native language or they lose their mystery or power.

[Mor Ephrem]

Mor, English is a language that borrows words from other languages. I don't see anything wrong with using Theotokos in English. So what is wrong with using Theotokos then?

It is true that English is a language that borrows words from other languages, but that doesn't mean everyone "gets it" or can "get into it". For instance, I sometimes employ Latin phrases that have made their way into English if I can use them, but if the other person doesn't get it, what have I communicated?

I don't think there's anything wrong at all with using the word Theotokos. I just wonder why in English "Theotokos" is kept when it is not preserved in the Slavonic. Why does the OCA use "Theotokos" instead of "Bogoroditse" (I probably butchered the Slavonic word, but I trust you know what I'm referring to), even though the latter works better in their case, in my opinion, because they came from the Russian Church and not the Greeks? Or why did the Slavs translate Theotokos into their languages, but such is not done in English? Surely the reasoning behind this is not the desire to make the English language more colourful by the addition of more words of foreign origin. If "Mother of God" is a good vernacular translation of Theotokos, why do most EO in the English speaking world prefer Theotokos in almost every case?

As for the point about the Greek word better conveying the meaning than any translation ever could, this is probably true, but then, this is an excellent argument, in the EO tradition anyway, to ONLY celebrate the Divine Liturgy and other services in Greek, and make Eastern Orthodox Christians learn Greek rather than translate services into the vernacular. This way, they get as much as possible out of the liturgy of the Constantinopolitan tradition.

I don't have a beef with using Theotokos, but I do have beef with people mispronouncing it. If you're going to use it, at least learn how to say it right!

[Justin Kissel]

One wonders if we should insist that we say the creed with homoousion as well! The word theotokos was as much about content as the actual word. In the case of the consubstantiality of Jesus and the Father, however, a precise theologically term had to be "imported" into the Church terminology and "baptized" for Orthodox use (well, it had been there before that, but used in an incorrect way). If one wants to make a case that we must without question keep Theotokos, I think that they should have to also argue that we must use the word homoousion as well. Isn't it inconsistent to insist on one, but to accept the approximate english translation/rendering for the other?

[bogoliubtsy]

If the Greek Theotokos and the Slavonic Bogoroditse can be used, then why can't we just use the English equivalent "Mother of God"? Or perhaps form a new word like Godbearer which would not be hyphenated in order to stress the uniqueness of the word.

Good translation is extremely difficult.

Just some thoughts.