Moderator: Mark Templet
Lydia wrote:I wish the updates would include specifics of what is actually being discussed in these meetings.
Agreed. However, I am sure our bishops have good reason for not giving a full play by play run down of the proceedings. We must exercise patience.
jgress wrote:Icxypion wrote:Yes, it is a good step in the right direction. They may still need to be re-ordained and chrismated, and some whose baptism is recent possibly baptised, since they have been formally in communion for years with ecumenist heretics. If the bishops decide that they must be received back into the TOC with some degree of akriveia then they may find that requirement a bit too much to swallow. However, let us hope and pray for the best. Actually this may be something similar to the move towards a correction within SiR, who are now in dialogue with us to overcome impediments to intercommunion, namely the Cyprianite ecclesiological error.
I think the baptism issue depends on the form with which they were baptized in the MP. There are reports that, as in many NC churches, MP churches often use sprinkling, and this is what upset some zealots in the GOC concerning some RTOC members.
Strictness can be necessary, but not always. I think we just live in very confusing times, and often it just isn't clear when we should be strict and when we should be relaxed. E.g. for decades ROCOR had a relaxed attitude to ecclesiological matters, and I think in some ways that may have been good. For example, by not making a firm decision about grace in the ecumenist churches, ROCOR to me seems to have been a kind of bridge between conservatives in the World Orthodox churches and the True Orthodox, enabling some in the WO churches to "make the leap". But in other ways, of course, this attitude was bad, since it allowed ecumenist-minded people to hijack ROCOR and take advantage of its tolerance to drag it into World Orthodoxy.
You could say ROCOR should have been strict from the beginning, but I think you could argue that would have driven away many people who are now in the True Church. In the end, it's just impossible to say.
Interesting musings, Jonathan. It is a complex issue, and worthy of cautious evaluation.
Thanks. You're right that they are just musings. No one should interpret what I said as some kind of official take on what happened. These are just thoughts I've gathered from my reading and talking to people who lived through some of these events.
I think Lydia's comments above cut to a much cleaner, deeper level of truth.
The tactic of "Dialogue" is so over-used. It usually means people sitting around, yes, drinking COFFEE !, and chattering, without accomplishing a whole lot.
It looks good to supporters or followers, whether Church or political, but usually goes nowhere.
Seems to be a "stall" measure more than anything constructive!
The problem, as Lydia says, lies in the stark REFUSAL of one party to fully admit they had the wrong belief and renounce that.
USUALLY : Fragile egos and negatively stubborn mental attitudes are involved, rather than the kind of humility which is required to make major steps
forward to get out of a long-festering impasse.
I think it would be great if Metr Agafangel, who seems to be drawing nearer to our way, would make that unilateral declaration.
And SiR along with him.
Then there could be real progress.
Hope Met Agafangel will consider this step. Surely much was done in haste in the early post-union days.
Maybe there was no adequate time to evaluate with whom he teamed up as "sister churches".
Perhaps now the time is ripe for reconsideration on the part of both Cyprianite factions ?
Yes, it's the coffee that does it. If they only would start drinking tea instead at these meetings we'd see some progress!
Coffee nerves can ruin anybody's day.
Think that by the time one wakes up from the "low" after the sped-up stage, one may be not
at all fit to give eloquent speeches [or even HEAR them from others !], let alone intricate negoatiating with one's opposite numbers !
Tea calms the nerves while clarifying the mind, if authentic [non GMO of course !] tea.
I will be happy to send a good quality Organic Darjeeling or similar tea to any of the parties involved in breaking deadlocks of long standing
between the various Churches....just so long as they agree to renounce Cyprianism !!
As far as the lack of detailed updates, that strikes me as a bad sign.
If there were good news, there would be encouraging little mentions here and there, common sense would say.
There must either NO NEWS. Or BAD NEWS.
SO FAR --
Anything can change, with Heaven's help, though.
