Marian Apparitions vs Visitations of the Saints

[Maria]

There are many devout Roman Catholics who say their prayers, try their best to live a godly life, but have been conditioned to believe that theirs is the true Faith. If we were to try to convert them by attacking the Pope of Rome, they might become agnostic or atheistic. I have known many former Catholics who are now agnostic, atheistic, or worse, wiccan.

I think the best approach is to share the lives of our pre-schism and post-schism saints. Invite them to our Divine Liturgy and let them experience true and correct worship without guitars and dancing girls. Once they realize that we have the True Faith with many holy saints like St. Seraphim of Sarov and the New Martyrs of Russia, then they might come to the conclusion that something is wrong with Rome and her worship.

But to attack the Roman Catholic faith head on is bound to have negative repercussions as Catholics will question our faith, hope, and charity asking, "Where is your love?" Scriptures do say that Christians will be known for our love of one another.

St. Seraphim of Sarov said that if we acquire the Holy Spirit, then thousands around us will be converted.

This is true as it is the Holy Spirit who will grant the grace of repentance to those who are honestly seeking the truth.

This is probably the best approach. There are many CAtholics who fall in love, so to speak, with the antiquity and sense of mystical worship they sense at an Orthodox liturgy. Being attracted is essential. ....

I also fell in love with the Divine Liturgy the first time I attended one. This was true Heavenly Worship. I listened to the words of the Trisagion Hymn, and was in tears. This was truly angelic music worshiping the All-Holy Trinity. After that one experience, I could never go back to a New Order (Novus Ordo) Mass. Then when I realized that Orthodox Christians still venerated St. Christopher, I was hooked. I was home. I had found the true faith. Praise the Lord.

[Maria]

Since this thread is on apparitions of the Holy Theotokos, I will also add this tidbit.

On Mount Athos, several times the Icon of the Virgin Theotokos came alive when she needed to correct or give comfort to the Monks. Then her icon would return to normal.

In Russia, when the villagers were threatened by hordes of unbelievers, several times the parish priest would ask the people to pray in procession holding the Icon of the Theotokos. The unbelievers and the parishioners witnessed the Icon of the Theotokos becoming bigger than life. Since the Virgin Theotokos had an appearance that was fearsome, these unbelievers were chased away without harming the villagers.

Right now, I do not have the links to these stories, but I have read them in several books.

[Matthew]

I also fell in love with the Divine Liturgy the first time I attended one. This was true Heavenly Worship. I listened to the words of the Trisagion Hymn, and was in tears. This was truly angelic music worshiping the All-Holy Trinity. After that one experience, I could never go back to a New Order (Novus Ordo) Mass. Then when I realized that Orthodox Christians still venerated St. Christopher, I was hooked. I was home. I had found the true faith. Praise the Lord.

Yes, the music of the Church has a powerful drawing power upon me as well. The ancient sounds, that have a strange yet familiar and hauntingly beautiful air about them.

[Matthew]

Since this thread is on apparitions of the Holy Theotokos, I will also add this tidbit.

On Mount Athos, several times the Icon of the Virgin Theotokos came alive when she needed to correct or give comfort to the Monks. Then her icon would return to normal.

In Russia, when the villagers were threatened by hordes of unbelievers, several times the parish priest would ask the people to pray in procession holding the Icon of the Theotokos. The unbelievers and the parishioners witnessed the Icon of the Theotokos becoming bigger than life. Since the Virgin Theotokos had an appearance that was fearsome, these unbelievers were chased away without harming the villagers.

Right now, I do not have the links to these stories, but I have read them in several books.

Yes, I have read such accounts as well. They are powerful proofs of how God is truly among the Orthodox.

[Maria]

Moderator Note:

• Several off-topic posts on the differences between Byzantine Icons and Western Religious Art have been moved into a new thread: http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 543#p55543.
  
  I apologize for creating this detour.
  
  Please try to keep this thread on topic.

Discerning whether apparitions are of God.

St. Peter reminds us that we must be sober and watchful. If we were to experience an apparition, careful discernment by asking the "apparition" to make the Sign of the Cross or pray the Lord's Prayer is very important. Since the devil, that old shapeshifter, cannot maintain the image of the Saints, Christ, or the Theotokos for very long, a wavering figure or distorted image is one sign that the apparition may be false. A monk of Mt. Athos gave this additional advice: when using discernment, we must make haste to seek the advice of our spiritual fathers and be obedient. The devil hates obedience.

Both Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians have used these methods to discern. Catherine of Siena, a Dominican Tertiary and canonized Roman Catholic saint who lived shortly after the Great Schism received a couple of visitations supposedly of Christ and the Theotokos, which she later revealed were actually the devil. Then Our Lord appeared to her and told her how to discern. A demonic apparition will cause great happiness that is momentary because he is appealing to our pride. Later that happiness turns to confusion and perhaps a paralyzing scrupulosity. On the other hand, an apparition of the Saints, the Theotokos, or our Lord, will give us joy and a spirit of repentance and obedience. The information Catherine of Siena received and wrote down in her dialogues was actually very orthodox.

However, today, this discernment is often lacking in Roman Catholicism. Witness the so-called vision on demand at Medjurgorje with the seers being disobedient to their bishop. How can this be a true vision? The tourist industry and the seers swear that they are the honest thing. Lord have mercy.

[Matthew]

Indeed the entire MUD-ja-Gory-yah thing is so obviously and entirely NOT of God or genuine it staggers the imagination how people buy into this stuff.

[jgress]

Indeed the entire MUD-ja-Gory-yah thing is so obviously and entirely NOT of God or genuine it staggers the imagination how people buy into this stuff.

Many Catholics, indeed many traditionalist Catholics, also reject the authenticity of Medjugorje. By any objective appraisal of the witnesses this is a suspicious event.