Good Works of Ecumenists and Heterodox Gain Nothing

[Matthew]

Sorry, you are not right when you say this. Let God be the judge of this, not you.

God will see the heart, regardless of what faith people have and not because you are old calendarists, that you all will be saved. Only God knows this not anyone else.

Like I have said before, I do not usually like to reply, to any topics as this forum, seems to me has become only for the old calender people.

But please, if you want new people to look into this forum, be respectful that we are not all old calendar followers.

Jonathan, perhaps you should add in this forum, that it only belongs to the old calender beleivers and no one else.

Dear Angela, I am sorry for not being careful to fully explain my views when I posted this because I am always thinking that everyone on this forum is True Orthodox and understands the full position. So, let me clarify or qualify my previous statement. I can say with all certainty of fact and experience, that NO ONE I have ever met in the TOC churches believes any of the following:

1) We will be saved simply because we follow the Canonical Church Calendar, avoid ecumenism or communion or prayer with heretics.
2) that we can know that we ourselves will be saved or that we can know that other Christians in the Ecumenist Orthodox Jurisdictions or that the heterodox will not be saved.
3) that heterodox cannot be saved simply because their churches' sacraments are devoid of grace, or because they simply have no tradition of observing sacraments.

Rather, I have encountered many clergy, monks, and layfolk who DO believe the following:

1) that whilst it is good and right to keep the canonical Church Calendar and to avoid the spiritual stain of false ecumenism and prayer with heretics, these things alone will not save us, and are quite insufficient to efface our personal sins, which in all honesty are many.
2) that it is the hight of presumption and delusion to think we will be assuredly saved, or that someone else (from our Church or from among heretics or even adherents of false religions like the buddhists, muslims, or what have you, will NOT be saved. We simply cannot know this but we fully acknowledge (not after a manner of a general sort but on a person to person basis) God alone can decide and know this because His mercy is so great and of a mysterious nature that the possibility always exists that contrary to the observable conditions of a person's life, being seriously at variance with the Gospel and Church conditions for salvation, they may yet be saved.
3) that, again, correct doctrine--so little regarded these days even by more traditionally minded people from various denominations--remains nonetheless an essential for assuring one (after the general consensus of the Church's judgement on this matter) for the vast majority of souls on this side of eternity, and that in this hour we are more in need of reminding and affirming ourselves of the extreme seriousness of failing to maintain the fear of God in the matter of doctrine than in past generations, than in reminding ourselves of God's mercy and breadth of love for His creation generally and, more specifically, towards those desiring to serve him while convinced of heterodox beliefs. Of the latter there is an abundance in this hour; of the former, there is a great lack of attentiveness, and I would say, even an amnesic condition of disregard.

I would like to ask you to consider the above quotes from Saint Theodore the Studite carefully on communion with heretics and ask you why you do not leave the Ecumenists, since they have openly confessed the sacraments of the heretics are one and the same with the Orthodox making the basis for canonizing Saint Mark of Ephesus as one of the Three Great Pillars of Orthodoxy meaningless. If the Catholics have grace filled sacraments today after VAtican One's Immaculate conception, papal infallibility, and the other errors of VAtican 2, how much more must their sacraments have been gracefilled at the council of florence in the 15th century? And if grace filled both now and also then, Saint Mark not only should be stricken from the lists of Orthodox canonical saints, but he should be condemned for having divided True brethren and true sister churches falsely, because if the Most Holy Spirit is not avoiding to fully participating in their sacraments, how much less should we sinners be unwilling to pray with CAtholics and to join in communion with them at their altars? So you see, the whole of Orthodoxy has been cast into confusion and, indeed, as we believe here at Euphrosynos Cafe, into heresy by in actuality denying Saint Mark of Ephesus and the several councils the Orthodox have held since Florence condemning the Catholics as graceless heretics. As offensive as this doublessly sounds, this is the Orthodox Historical Confession of our Holy Fathers, confessors, and saints. Love it, or leave it. But there it is.

[ANGELA]

Thats okay, no problem.

Forgive me, as I was frustrated with some things that are being said. It looks like to me, and maybe an outsider that this forum is sitting up high, casting stones on everyone else.

If you see my posts, they are very respectful.

Thank you for this info, however, answer me this.

Suppose, someone is married to a Catholic, and its time for prayer with the children at the dinner table.

Now, do you ask the partner to leave because they are not Orthodox and they cannot pray together?

Now the wife loves the husband, but she is orthodox, how would she feel when people are saying that her husband is not going to heaven because he is not orthodox?

Do you see what I am getting at? We should respect all faiths, and not judge.

And we also need to look at our own plate, instead of someone else's plate. (for which I need to improve on).

I like reading some of the topics, like the misc one, as I like to know what is going on. But as for some of the other topics, it just dosnt seem nice.

Forgive me, but this is what I have noticed.

[Matthew]

I believe we are put on this planet to help others as much as we are able. That should be our focus, and to try to live simply, pleasing in Gods eyes.
Angela

Dear Angela,

I really appreciate your attitude. It is very good, indeed. I have no issues with what you have said, only the point singled out above, as it gets back to the reason for our differing sentiments on the issues dividing the Ecumenist Orthodox from the True Orthodox.

Yes, we are here in part to help others as much as possible. It is the second commandment: Love your neighbour as yourself.
However, the first and the highest commandment is to love God, and this is revealed not only by how we treat our neighbours, but also in our zeal and love for God's revealed TRUTH. Truth is something that is truly undervalued and underrated today, even in what are considered more traditionally oriented churches. The Apostle Paul says of those in the last days before Christ comes again, in the time of the general great falling away, that "They were deceived because they received not the LOVE of the TRUTH." (see epistle to the Thessalonians) And this is what is so under attack right now, is that people put too little stock in the seriousness of dogma, truth and in the flip side of the coin--they do not take seriously or fully appreciated as the Fathers and saints did the mortal seriousness of heresy which are sins against the truth. Yes sinning against our love for our neighbour is capable of depriving us of salvation, but so is a sin against the truth either through negligence or purposeful aberration.

[ANGELA]

Yes, this is very true.

[Matthew]

Suppose, someone is married to a Catholic, and its time for prayer with the children at the dinner table.

Now, do you ask the partner to leave because they are not Orthodox and they cannot pray together?

Now the wife loves the husband, but she is orthodox, how would she feel when people are saying that her husband is not going to heaven because he is not orthodox?

Do you see what I am getting at? We should respect all faiths, and not judge.

The situation you ask about is no easy one to handle and is beyond my competence, to be sure. I would say, consult with a respected TOC priest or bishop if you want to have a reasonably accurate opinion of how to respond to this kind of situation. I would say, at least, that this kind of difficulty is precisely why the TOC bishops strictly adhere to a no exceptions policy of following the canons in refusing to join in marriage any of their faithful with a non-Orthodox. But since this has been already done, the wife is forced to deal with this very carefully and avoiding compromises will be extremely difficult. I would also say, that no one can say the catholic husband "Wont be saved". This is simply impossible to judge because as I said before on a person to person basis, rather than the general judgement of the Church for the majority of cases, we cannot say how God will decided regarding that person. He may have just cause to save them. We just don't know. We can know what and where the True Church is, and what kind of life and beliefs we each personally need to have in order to be reasonably confident of our own salvation. But we cannot make guesses about our friends or family members, either in or out of the Church.

[frphoti]

As has been said, God knows the heart of a man (or woman). He knows wether their good deeds were done for HIs glory or for their own sake. That being said, there are those who believe they worship the God of the bible, but worship someone else completely. Therefore their prayer is misdirected. Does God not know this? Of course He does. He will do as He sees fit with them at the Judgement.

Something we must remember about Patristic writings as well, is that they are therapeutic. They are meant to cause a response by the spiritual immune system, thus healing a person's nous. Have you ever been to the doctor and had them say that a seemingly small thing could be the death of you? "Oh, it certainly could be." they might say. Most things if taken to their extent are deadly, carcinogenic, dangerous it seems. The doctor has to shake a person from the unhealthy slumber. The spiritual physician has to do the same. He has to shake someone to repentance, and if saying very categorically that no one outside the bounds of the Church will be saved -as blurry as those bounds have been throughout history- he will do so for the good of their soul.

We have the Canons of the Church. We hear about them so much on the forums. They are very rigid when read without application. Any bishop or priest will tell you however, that to fully apply the medicine contained in the canons would deprive the Church of many -if not all- it's members; especially the clergy. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

The Church is the Ark of salvation. Only those on the Ark are of the immediate concern of Hers, and She will say much that is great in order to get them to understand that the Ark is where they need to be to survive. Her immediate concern is Her own people. Those floating outside are deemed to be doomed, for any other judgement upon them is for God to do. Those people who witnessed the "crazy guy, Noah" building his big boat, were no longer Noah's concern while afloat during the Flood. His concern was his family and the animals on the Ark.

The Church therefore has the confidence that it is the vehicle of salvation for all mankind, and it also prays for everyone who is not in it, that all may be saved and come to the knowledge of Truth. God will judge, He that Is before the ages.

[Matthew]

Excellent and thought provoking ideas of the teaching of the Church on this matter as therapy and motivation towards healing and stimulating a good saving response within us, rather than as a legal straight jacket, or sledge-hammer. That "outside the Church is no salvation" is meant as a way of eliciting greater fidelity to the Church really makes sense.