Greek Old Believers?

[Revnitel]

It was practiced definitely during the lifetime of St. John Chrysostom because he writes about it and instructs people to make the sign of the Cross over themselves that way. It was practiced definitely during the time of the Conversion of Russia until the fall of Russia to the Mongols in the thirteenth century. Right around the fourteenth century, Slavonic books in Serbia calling for these rituals amongst them were burned by the Greeks according to Fr. Meyendorff. Within that 100 year period, which would include the fall of Constantinople to the Crusaders and its reconquest by the Orthodox.

[Matthew]

I have researched the evidence of which is earlier, the two fingered sign, or the three fingered sign.
If you look at Icons you only see the two fingered sign of the cross. On the other hand if you look at ancient relics you can see the three fingered sign.

Here is the incorrupt hand of Saint James the Apostle which clearly makes the three fingered sign.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/catholi ... o-reading/

This is the incorrupt hand of Saint John, but it is hard to tell if it is with two or three fingers.
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/01 ... ptist.html

We also have this witness from Saint Meletius of Antioch:

St Meletius, Archbishop of Antioch
This great and holy man was an outstanding interpreter and defender of Orthodoxy. The whole of his life was devoted to the fight against the Arian heresy, which did not recognise the Son of God and blasphemed against the Holy Trinity. He was three times removed from his archiepiscopal throne by the heretics, and driven off into Armenia. The struggle between the Orthodox and the heretics became so bitter that once, while St Meletius was preaching to the people in church on the divine Trinity in unity, his own deacon, a heretic, ran up to the bishop and shut his mouth with his hand. Being unable to preach with words, Meletius preached by signs. Thus, he raised his arms on high, opened three fingers to their fullest extent and showed them to the people, then closed his hand and raised the one fist. He took part in the Second Ecumenical Council in 381, where the Emperor Theodosius showed him specially great honour. At that Council, God showed a mystery through His archbishop. When Meletius was propounding the doctrine of the Holy Trinity to the Arians, he first raised three fingers, separated one by one, then brought them together; and at that moment lightning flashed from his hand before the gaze of all present. At that Council, Meletius established Gregory the Theologian in the seat of Constantinople. While the Council was still in session, St Meletius finished his earthly course in Constantinople. His relics were taken to Antioch.

Admittedly, the account does not specify that he was making the sign of the cross, nor does it say thumb and two fingers. It may simply have been an open hand raised up with the three longest fingers being extended. We do not know. I only think that it suggests that if the two fingered sign was in common use (as we see our clergy use today when blessing us) then perhaps, and it is only a guess, perhaps it became popular to start using three fingers among the laity to confirm the trinity against the Arians. In any case, we have the incorrupt hand of Saint James to prove that the three fingered cross is also apostolic.

Again, it seems to me that, whether or not the Two Fingered sign is of later origin or not, the three fingered sign is indeed apostolic, as the relics of Saint James the Apostle prove.

[Revnitel]

No, it means the Old Rite way of making the sign of the Cross as that is how the Slavs were instructed by the Byzantines. It is the older way. St. Anna of Kashin has her hands held in the Old Rite way. The relics of Saints in the Kiev Caves likewise. When you are blessed by a Priest or Bishop it is done in an adaptation the Old Rite manner. It is the older form. In Icons of Christ, He is blessing you in an adapted Old Rite form. In icons of all Saints given a blessing the same.

The Russians received their rite in toto from the Byzantines and were schooled in it by the most zealous of their missionaries. They didnt fabricate these things on their own.

[Barbara]

St Anna of Kashin has her hands like that - WHERE ?
In Icons ? Incorrupt relics ?

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Fascinating what Icxypion turned up about St James the Apostle !
Really interesting; GREAT research !

[Revnitel]

The Holy Relics of St. Anna of Kashin have her fingers folded in Old Rite fashion and there are several such other instances amongst the relics of Saints in the Kiev Caves...

[Matthew]

Yes, brother Revnitel is correct. There are several incorrupt saints predating the changes under NIkon where the hands of the saints are clearly folden in the "Two Fingered Sign" (actually the Staroveri called it the Five Fingered Sign). And he is correct obviously about the Icons showing this is a very ancient form of the cross. My point is simply that the claim that the three fingered sign (or the "Tobbacco pinch" as the Staroveri call it) is not to be derided and maligned. It is also of ancient apostolic origin much in the same way that Saint Peter taught Rome to celebrate Pascha on a moveable feast day and Saint John taught the Christians of Asia Minor to celebrate it on a fixed calendar date. Both practices were of apostolic origin and existed side by side for centuries until for the sake of conformity one was put into disuse in favour of the other as the more preferable. The three fingered sign, therefore, it would seem is not an invention of the post schism Catholics that was adopted by the Greeks as they tried to get cozy with the Catholics (in the dialogue at the Florence Council) as the Old Believer claim, but is apostolic and worthy of use.

[Maria]

Yes, brother Revnitel is correct. There are several incorrupt saints predating the changes under NIkon where the hands of the saints are clearly folden in the "Two Fingered Sign" (actually the Staroveri called it the Five Fingered Sign). And he is correct obviously about the Icons showing this is a very ancient form of the cross. My point is simply that the claim that the three fingered sign (or the "Tobbacco pinch" as the Staroveri call it) is not to be derided and maligned. It is also of ancient apostolic origin much in the same way that Saint Peter taught Rome to celebrate Pascha on a moveable feast day and Saint John taught the Christians of Asia Minor to celebrate it on a fixed calendar date. Both practices were of apostolic origin and existed side by side for centuries until for the sake of conformity one was put into disuse in favour of the other as the more preferable. The three fingered sign, therefore, it would seem is not an invention of the post schism Catholics that was adopted by the Greeks as they tried to get cozy with the Catholics (in the dialogue at the Florence Council) as the Old Believer claim, but is apostolic and worthy of use.

I thought that the Catholics (except those of the Byzantine Rites) used the Face Palm to make the Sign of the Cross.
:shock:
I mean, they use a flat palm so that the three middle fingers touch the forehead.