60 minutes Nov 18 - Young babies and morality

[Maria]

Nevertheless, the Church does recognize that saints USUALLY come from families of saints.
And married priests usually have one or more sons who follow them into the priesthood.

Look at the family of St. Basil the Great. All of the members of his family, his parents, his brothers and sisters were all devout. St. Seraphim of Sarov also came from a devout family who built churches.

After the results were analyzed, these psychologists came to the conclusion that babies do have an innate sense of morality.

The psychologists work from preconceived beliefs. I think the test should be monitored for the psychologists too. Identify what their views are because they will see what they want to see based on their own beliefs. Morality is based on conscience beliefs. A 3 month old baby can't make that decision. And did the psychologists consider the variables? What environment were the babies in? What was the condition of their diapers? Was their mother or father in line of their sight? What was the light setting? What time of day did they do the experiment. Did the infant have a feeding before or after the experiment. Did the infant have a nap before or after the experiment. Etc..etc.. This is a bogus experiment. Too many variables to consider.

However, I have seen children of priests and devout parishioners who are very generous at a very early age. An active prayer life and participating in works of charity helps. I also think that having a large family encourages generosity as children must learn to share, and will model an older sibling who is devout. In addition, there have been studies showing that the father plays a larger role in helping children to become devout Christians. If a father stays home while the mom takes the children to church, then later on, teenage boys and girls will rebel and will want to stay home with dad. If the father is a chanter and goes regularly to church, but the wife stays home, then the children will follow their dad and usually become devout. Intact families are crucial for the development of our faith.

I have seen children of priests who have left the Orthodox Church and don't want to care for their parents. I have seen children whose parents are secular, but that child moves closer to God. There is no rule in what will influence a child to move towards God. Jesus Christ showed us that there are no set rules. Judas was one of the disciples and betrayed God. But, Saul, who persecuted the Christians, was turned around. There's the example of St. Mary of Egypt and St. Moses the Ethiopian.
I think that the method of intellectual analysis is wrong. There's something much deeper going on. And God breaks the rules whenever He pleases in order to show us that we are not subject to our circumstances so much as we are subject to the call from God.

[joasia]

Maria,

Sure there were pious families, but there are no set rules. Look at Adam and Eve. If anyone would be influenced by their existence, it would have been them. They had direct communication with God, but look what happened. So if a child has a father who is a priest, you think that will make them predisposed to being faithful? No. Some examples may go that way, but many don't. A prostitute became a saint. And there are children of parents that worshiped God who left the faith.

Another example. The 40 martyrs of Sabaste. Near the end, one of them gave up their faith, but one Roman soldier saw the crowns descending (but one started rising up because of the man who gave it up) and confessed Christ and ran out into the cold to suffer death. He must have had a family and certainly had his comfort in life, but he chose to give that all up in hopes of being with Christ. There are no set rules.

The psychologists don't know what they're talking about. They want to make spiritual observations when they don't even have a clue of what the true faith is.

[Maria]

I am neither an advocate of psychiatry nor psychology as the basis for these pseudo-sciences is the exaltation of man and the debunking of God.

I found this psychological study interesting because several Orthodox Christian Priests said that young babies are capable of evil, and this is why babies should be baptized and communed as early as possible. Furthermore, this study shows that children as young as three months want people who differ from them to be punished, which is the root of bullying, retaliation, and anti-social behaviors.

Maria,

Sure there were pious families, but there are no set rules. Look at Adam and Eve. If anyone would be influenced by their existence, it would have been them. They had direct communication with God, but look what happened. So if a child has a father who is a priest, you think that will make them predisposed to being faithful? No. Some examples may go that way, but many don't. A prostitute became a saint. And there are children of parents that worshiped God who left the faith.

Another example. The 40 martyrs of Sabaste. Near the end, one of them gave up their faith, but one Roman soldier saw the crowns descending (but one started rising up because of the man who gave it up) and confessed Christ and ran out into the cold to suffer death. He must have had a family and certainly had his comfort in life, but he chose to give that all up in hopes of being with Christ. There are no set rules.

The psychologists don't know what they're talking about. They want to make spiritual observations when they don't even have a clue of what the true faith is.

[Matthew]

If a father stays home while the mom takes the children to church, then later on, teenage boys and girls will rebel and will want to stay home with dad. If the father is a chanter and goes regularly to church, but the wife stays home, then the children will follow their dad and usually become devout. Intact families are crucial for the development of our faith.

[/quote]

Wow, that is interesting Maria. Where did you pick up on that point? I wonder why there is this difference...

[Matthew]

I have seen children of priests who have left the Orthodox Church and don't want to care for their parents. I have seen children whose parents are secular, but that child moves closer to God. There is no rule in what will influence a child to move towards God. Jesus Christ showed us that there are no set rules. Judas was one of the disciples and betrayed God. But, Saul, who persecuted the Christians, was turned around.

That is a good counterpoint, Joanna. But on the other hand maybe Maria is speaking in statistical likelihoods. I don't think anyone would disagree with your statement that there are no rules or that there are no relatively frequent exceptions. Nevertheless, I think your point is a very good one.

[Matthew]

I think that the method of intellectual analysis is wrong. There's something much deeper going on. And God breaks the rules whenever He pleases in order to show us that we are not subject to our circumstances so much as we are subject to the call from God.

I totally agree. As I read about these experiments the psychologists were doing to evaluate these children, I felt their attitude and actions are so similar to the demons who likewise experiment on our minds and emotions. There is something I have noticed in the intellectuals of academia when I was at university, and that is that they definitely displayed a certain attitude that they considered themselves somehow separate from, different from, and superior to the people they studied as though they were not men and women of like passions and weaknesses. They glory in their sense of cleverness and they believe the ability to categorise something is equal with gaining control and superiority over it. And this delusion that they are not what they are studying makes them, like the demons, feel that they are touching godhood. Who are these academics to pick apart the brains of little children? Did the thousands of years of mothers that raised their children ever feel the impulse, need, or desire to view and direct their children like that? No. But if they did, to what avail would it have been. None. It would have been proven a futile exercise, or perhaps even something worse than that.

[Matthew]

I am neither an advocate of psychiatry nor psychology as the basis for these pseudo-sciences is the exaltation of man and the debunking of God.

I found this psychological study interesting because several Orthodox Christian Priests said that young babies are capable of evil, and this is why babies should be baptized and communed as early as possible. Furthermore, this study shows that children as young as three months want people who differ from them to be punished, which is the root of bullying, retaliation, and anti-social behaviors.

I don't think Joanna is saying that you are defending modern psychology. Only, what is the value of such experiments being done anyways. The only reason I can think of for Orthodox people to try to go over such material and examine it is to counter the false influences that assail our society and are eroding its traditional and Christian elements. Which is what you have done, of course. So as far as that goes, it is interesting and of value in our war against these atheist busybody "intellectuals". Again, the Church has understood all this from the beginning, which is why, as you noted, the ministries of the Church such as baptism and communion for babies, as well as other aspects of Church life which includes infants, have been practised from of old. By the revelation of God we know that sin is present from conception, and that as the will develops and knowledge increases so do the expressions of our fallen nature. However, their roots are present from conception, being planted in our inherited fallen nature. In any case, I don't think figuring all these things out in an intellectual, experimental fashion brings mankind one single step closer to making better or more moral children or a lend hope to developing a more just and harmonious civilisation. Their knowledge is without power. Only the power of the life of Christ in the Church is what can really produce a higher nature in people at every stage of life. That is why I avoid and reject the modern social sciences--as interesting as they may be. In the Church is everything mankind has ever needed or ever will need.