NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

[jgress]

I think it's fair to say that Cyprian and Joanna's views are not representative of the Orthodox. After doing a little internet research, it turns out that all the accusations against Lewis derive from extremist Protestant fundamentalist sources (John Todd, of course, being a prime example). If Cyprian or Joanna can produce an Orthodox critique of Lewis from a reputable source, I think that would be a far more useful contribution to this discussion.

[Cyprian]

Greetings Jonathan,

I don't even know who John Todd is. I do not let "extremist Protestant fundamentalist sources" dictate my beliefs at all. I submit to the teachings of the Orthodox Catholic Church, and I strive to acquire the mind of the Fathers. Like a broken clock, even Protestant fundamentalists can be right a couple times a day. The fact of the matter is, there are so many different Protestant sects out there with so many varied beliefs, that is is not difficult to find many more Protestant websites promoting the writings of C.S. Lewis than you will find criticizing him.

C.S. Lewis is a writer not far removed from our times who wrote in English. It's not like there are a lot of saints and holy teachers who would have had exposure to his writings. C.S Lewis is popular in the Western English-speaking world because he has been promoted heavily by the Masons/Illuminati, who have successfully installed their agents at the highest levels of the apostate Christian world.

I would be curious to learn who Jonathan would consider acceptable as a "reputable Orthodox source"? I can find criticism of Harry Potter by "reputable" or well-known Orthodox sources (Fr. Ephrem's monastery in AZ is one that comes to mind), but on the other side, bishops and clergy of the Synod in Resistance readily promote the series.

To be honest, I am simply not aware of any formal reviews/critiques of the Narnia books by any Orthodox source, period. However, I am quite well-versed in what the holy scriptures and holy fathers of the Church have to say about pagan mythological deities (demons) such as Pan/Faunus, Dionysius/Bacchus, the Bacchanalian rites, and what they say about satyrs and incubi and such.

It would be helpful if Jonathan and Maria would share with us if they simply reject outright the notion of Mr. Tumnus being a Pan-like figure, or rather do they accept that Mr. Tumnus is styled or modeled after the pagan deity Pan, but do not find that to be a problem.

There would be little purpose for me to try to convince you that it is disturbing for Lewis to have chosen a Pan-like figure for this character in his story, if you will not accept the basic premise that Mr. Tumnus is Pan. I would first have to convince you that Mr. Tumnus is very much Pan-like, and it was the deliberate intent of the author to portray him this way. I am not going to go through the trouble of convincing you that Mr. Tumnus is indeed Pan, if you have already made up your mind that Pan is merely a benign or harmless figure, making it acceptable for young children to be exposed to Lewis's writings.

So please tell us what you think of the demon Pan, and we can move forward with a cogent argument.

[joasia]

I don't qualify this as my own opinion; that is something based more on personal preferences like the kind of cuisine I like or my favorite color, etc. I'm addressing this based on what I learnt from the Holy Scriptures and what I read from the holy fathers about sorcery, witchcraft, divination, conjuring, esoteric, spells and such. I don't have to quote them here. I'm sure everyone, here, is aware of them.

I posted the link to show everyone how serious this issue is. It's not based on Protestant Fundamentalism. John Todd was involved in that stuff and knew who else was too. But, besides that, I'd like to know why the above list is acceptable to Orthodox Christians. Why is it alright to have our children read these kinds of stories when Jesus Christ, the Apostles and all the holy fathers warned us to stay far away from people who are involved in that? Would they really have supported reading about them in novels?

If this lifestyle was rejected by them then why should we accept a book that promotes it? It's the same thing with Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings.

Jonathan, you asked for an Orthodox critique from a reliable source...I ask that you show me a true Orthodox Christian (baptized) that wrote a fantasy novel about the occult which is acceptable material to read to children.

Also, I would like to express that I am not looking for an argument, but I would like to hear, from someone who converted to the Orthodox Church because he/she was inspired by Lewis' novel of the Chronicles of Narnia. I know he wrote other spiritual works, but I would like to understand what it is about the Naria novels that would enlighten a person to come to Orthodoxy. After all, if Orthodox clergy are recommending these Chronicles to the youths, then there must be something to gain from them.

At this point, I'm still stumped.

[jgress]

I think the answer is very similar to the answer an educated but pious Orthodox Christian in Byzantium would give if challenged for promoting the virtues of the pagan classics, like Homer and the tragedians: if you are sufficiently grounded in Orthodoxy you will be able to take from these authors what is good and leave what is bad. The classics of the pagan Greeks was part of an educated young person's curriculum throughout the centuries of Christian civilization. If we go by your argument and reject everything that contains un-Christian elements then we repudiate the practice of centuries.

It is true that Lewis' choice of mythology to express what he saw as fundamental Christian truths in fable (similar to the purpose of Tolkien's mythology) is not an intrinsic part of Orthodox tradition, and I would never recommend substituting the reading of Lewis or Tolkien for the Fathers. But I think they are on the surface not morally objectionable. In Orthodoxy we believe that all magic is evil, but that is because we define magic as the appeal to the help of spirits without recourse to faith in God, with the result that the only spirits we address are the fallen ones. In Lewis' universe, there is good magic and bad magic, and the good magic is performed with faith in the figure of Aslan, who is clearly an allegorical figure of Christ in the fables. It seems to me that this is intended to correspond to miracles performed by faith in Christ in our world. I don't think it's possible to read the Narnia books and come away with the notion that just any kind of magic is good, or that there is not a profound struggle between good and evil in which we must take sides.

An Orthodox Christian knowledgeable in faith should understand that we cannot ultimately rely on fables of this kind to understand the truths of Christian doctrine. Even if superficially Lewis' fantasy does not contradict Christian morals, it would be right to tell children that they are fantasies and nothing more, and not to be held to the same standard as the Bible or Tradition. But I think it's also important to inculcate the ability to discern in the world what is good and what is bad, since we are required to live here, after all.

It is true that, for me, the Narnia tales are not the most profound of Lewis' works in terms of religious thought; essays like "Abolition of Man" are better and have played more of a role in my own journey towards faith. But I think it's preposterous to argue that Lewis was subtly promoting occultism or satanism (or pedophilia!!). I have no reason to believe that was his intention or that this has ever been the effect of his writings on anyone.

[Maria]

Oedipus Rex, part of the "pagan" Greek classics, is a prefiguration of Christ's death on the Holy Cross, in that one man died for all of us. It was writings such as Oedipus Rex which prepared the Greeks to accept Christ.

When my husband and I were reading C.S. Lewis' The Chronicles of Narnia, we were at a very low point in "our walk with Christ," so we decided that we needed to find another church. At that time, Cardinal Mahony was leading the Roman Catholic Church into the pit of Hell with his "liturgical revolutions," as he called them. We called an Orthodox Christian parish and made an appointment to see the priest. To my son's delight, the Orthodox Priest recommended that he read Lewis' Space Trilogy. That recommendation immediately delighted my son and opened him up to the catechumenate. While reading The Space Trilogy, my son studied the Holy Fathers, especially St. Justin. He also studied the Bible.

[joasia]

I think the answer is very similar to the answer an educated but pious Orthodox Christian in Byzantium would give if challenged for promoting the virtues of the pagan classics, like Homer and the tragedians:

The Byzantines did read Homer and recognized that God instilled a sense of God's presence in his writings. Homer may not have known Christ, but he knew there was a true God. God prepared the way for the pagans. That's why they came to believe in Christ when they heard the teachings. It fulfilled their emptiness. They recognized that they were still missing something. They were unsatisfied. But, the Byzantines did not promote animal sacrifice and the Delphi Oracle. Many holy fathers were educated in the classics and polemics. It was a great education.

if you are sufficiently grounded in Orthodoxy you will be able to take from these authors what is good and leave what is bad. The classics of the pagan Greeks was part of an educated young person's curriculum throughout the centuries of Christian civilization. If we go by your argument and reject everything that contains un-Christian elements then we repudiate the practice of centuries.

But, we're not talking about pagans beliefs. We are talking about a convert to Christianity that still upheld pagan virtues like magic, sorcery, spells etc. Show me a non-Christian, in ancient times, who converted to Christianity and still expressed pagan beliefs and I will show you a heretic. St. Cyprian renounced everything. An Orthodox Christian does not mix good with bad. He expresses the truth and the bad is not supported. The Byzantines viewed the good of God's message in the pagan philosophies in order to bring them to the full truth. They didn't accept it as if it can live side by side. Lewis promoted the acceptance of occult activities as if it was part of Christianity.

But I think they are on the surface not morally objectionable.

That is your opinion, of course?

In Orthodoxy we believe that all magic is evil, but that is because we define magic as the appeal to the help of spirits without recourse to faith in God, with the result that the only spirits we address are the fallen ones.

Exactly.

In Lewis' universe, there is good magic and bad magic, and the good magic is performed with faith in the figure of Aslan, who is clearly an allegorical figure of Christ in the fables.

Rightly said...Lewis' universe. Not mine. There is no "good" magic. All magic is evil. But, put a sympathetic character in it, and it becomes good. That's the trap. And I really don't see where Aslan is the figure of Christ when he condons Lucy's action of inciting the spell to make him visible in the later novel.

It seems to me that this is intended to correspond to miracles performed by faith in Christ in our world.

That's really a stretch.

An Orthodox Christian knowledgeable in faith should understand that we cannot ultimately rely on fables of this kind to understand the truths of Christian doctrine.

That's one of my points.

Even if superficially Lewis' fantasy does not contradict Christian morals, it would be right to tell children that they are fantasies and nothing more, and not to be held to the same standard as the Bible or Tradition.

But, he does contradict Christian morals by supporting occult activities in the stories.

But I think it's also important to inculcate the ability to discern in the world what is good and what is bad, since we are required to live here, after all.

That's what I'm trying to do here.

But I think it's preposterous to argue that Lewis was subtly promoting occultism or satanism (or pedophilia!!). I have no reason to believe that was his intention or that this has ever been the effect of his writings on anyone.

Well, I can say that we agree to disagree on this point. But, I have some knowledge about this subject which I guess is not accepted here. I thought it was well known knowledge, by the Orthodox, not just about Lewis, but about the evil circumstances we live in. The saints warned us about them and they are present, in our times, but in disguise.

[joasia]

Maria,

I appreciate your thoughtful response. I would like to know what spiritual message your son received to be encouraged to come to Orthodoxy from reading C.S. Lewis' work.