Questions about ecumenism from a near-convert

[Watt]

I've been a student, and teacher, of theology for nearly 20 years, and for the last 10 I've been moving more and more towards the Orthodox Church.

I was recently preparing to become a catechumen when I stumbled upon some information regarding ecumenism in the Orthodox Church.

As a protestant I learned about the WCC/NCC many years ago. I have always been opposed to it and assumed it to be at the least a dangerous move towards syncretism, and at worst a council conspiring to combine the worlds religions into one.

I then learned about the "traditionalist", "genuine", and "old-calendar" Orthodox who seem to be more consistent with the canons. However, I'm also concerned about their having broken communion with the lager Orthodox Church.

I recently talked with a priest (Antiochian) about my concerns and he maintained that ecumenism is harmful, a waste of time, but doesn't pose a threat to the Church at large. He also seemed to downplay the role of the Ecumenical Patriarch by stating that he's merely a figure head, and that he's in a situation that puts him under a lot of pressure to be cautious in how he approaches other faiths.

I'm also not entirely sure how the Church views the canons. The priests I've talked to seem to treat them as "case law" - much like many of the laws of the Old Testament - and thus to be understood as particular applications of general principles for a particular time and place. As a result we should be cautious in how we apply the canons today. For example, there are canons against acting in theatre. How would that apply today?

I find myself with a lot of questions, and unfortunately I'm out of my element because I'm not even Orthodox yet. I'm really not in a place to judge Orthodoxy.

So, I was hoping that perhaps some of you here could help me understand these issues a little more.

Do you believe that the Orthodox Churches involved in ecumenism are disobeying the Church's canons?
Do you believe that the canons truly apply today, in the same way they may have applied 1,200 years ago.
Do you believe that dialogue with Roman Catholics and Protestants is wrong? At what "level" it become wrong? Is an Orthodox person allowed to share the Gospel with a Roman Catholic and invite them to convert? If so, can this happen during a conversation over coffee, or at a conference?
Do you believe that the recent ecumenism may prove to be short lived and that the non-ecumenical Orthodox will triumph? Or do you believe that it's too late for that?
Do you believe that it's ok to break communion with Bishops after only 20-30 years of error in light of the fact that the Eastern Church refused to anathematize the Western Church for the Filioque, and appears to have considered the Roman see "vacant" for 1,000 years rather than fill it with a Patriarch. This, appears to me to be the Church showing patience with the West. Am I wrong?

Anyway, take it easy on me, I'm fairly ignorant compared to all of you.

Thanks for your time.

[Maria]

Welcome to the Cafe, Watt.

I too am new to the True Orthodox Church as I was baptized on December 4, 2011.

However, I was a member of the Greek Orthodox Church (GOARCH) for 15 years before I was baptized into the Genuine Church of Greece (GOC). While in World wide Orthodoxy, I met several Orthodox priests in the Antiochian and the Greek Orthodox Church who not only allowed newly baptized babies to have Catholic Godparents, but also allowed certain individuals (members of the Catholic Church or Eastern Catholic Churches) to receive communion. This intercommunion is causing considerable confusion as partaking of the Eucharist is a sign that one is in communion with that church. These priests have informed me that they are following the directives of their bishops. Ultimately, it is the bishops who are leading their flocks astray. Thus, members of the so-called canonical world wide Orthodox Churches are being lulled into sleep, and are being urged by their ecumenist bishops to be obedient.

Christ warned us that in the End Times, many would fall astray, and that few would persevere in the Holy Faith. Indeed, the Holy Fathers teach that we have been in the End Times since the Ascension of Christ. Thus, even though we have experienced many times of persecutions already, many more are to come.

The danger of exumenism is seen at the recent Assisi 2011 event where many jurisdictions of World Wide Orthodoxy were represented including the EP and the MP. At this event during October 2011, a voodoo witch doctor was reported to have blessed the Pope of Rome. Incredibly, even atheists were represented at this event.

[Watt]

I'm familiar with that event. It is a shame. That's the sort of stuff that bothers me a great deal.

I must admit that I do not believe we are in the "last days" in the same sense that you do.

I believe all of history following the incarnation is the "last days", and the "day of the Lord".

I believe that the Beast of Revelation was Nero Caesar - who's name is 666 in Hebrew Alphanumerics and 616 in Greek. That's why some greek manuscripts read 616 not 666. The "last days" of the Old Covenant (the covenantal judgment on Israel for breaking God's covenant) happened as part of the complex of events surrounding the first coming our Lord. Leading up to and including the 3 1/2 years of tribulation on Jerusalem while she was surrounded by Rome's armies from a.d. 66.5-70, just as Christ foretold in the Olivet Discourse. "And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by armies, then recognize that its destruction has come near. Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains; and those in its midst, let them go out. And those in the open spaces, let them not go into her. For these are days of vengeance when all things that have been written are to be fulfilled..."

Jesus told us when these days of judgment - the "end times" - would take place:

"Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur."

"Truly I say to you, All these things will come on this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those sent to her. How often I desired to gather your children in the way a bird gathers her chicks under her wings! And you did not desire it. 38 Behold, "your house is left to you desolate."

Nearly all of the Fathers took the Olivet Discourse (Matt 23-24, Mark 13, Luke 21) as referring to the judgment on Jerusalem in the events around a.d. 70.

Anyone steeped in Biblical symbolism, particularly Old Testament symbolism, will understand the Revelation of John.

For example, the symbolism of clouds that Christ uses always refers to judgment in the Old Testament. God came in the colds to judge Egypt, Babylon and Sodom. That's why Christ said he would 'come in the clouds' in Matthew 24. He wasn't talking about the final judgment on all mankind following the resurrection. He was talking about his Kingdom, and the New Covenant coming into fruition with the destruction of the Old Covenant temple and covenant breakers.

Anyone interested in more on this issue can contact me. There are dozens of great books on the subject as well as excellent papers online. Also see the Holy Fathers commentaries on Matthew 23, Luke 21 and Mark 13.

Most of the book of the Revelation was fulfilled during this time. We are currently living during the reign of the Lord. The one thousand years. The Lord is on his white horse advancing his Kingdom, through his Word. The nations, and all of his enemies, will come to proclaim Him as King before he returns at the resurrection!

[Maria]

I'm familiar with that event. It is a shame. That's the sort of stuff that bothers me a great deal.

I must admit that I do not believe we are in the "last days" in the same sense that you do.

I believe all of history following the incarnation is the "last days", and the "day of the Lord".

I believe that the Beast of Revelation was Nero Caesar - who's name is 666 in Hebrew Alphanumerics and 616 in Greek. That's why some greek manuscripts read 616 not 666. The "last days" of the Old Covenant (the covenantal judgment on Israel for breaking God's covenant) happened as part of the complex of events surrounding the first coming our Lord. Leading up to and including the 3 1/2 years of tribulation on Jerusalem while she was surrounded by Rome's armies from a.d. 66.5-70, just as Christ foretold in the Olivet Discourse. "And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by armies, then recognize that its destruction has come near. Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains; and those in its midst, let them go out. And those in the open spaces, let them not go into her. For these are days of vengeance when all things that have been written are to be fulfilled..."

Jesus told us when these days of judgment - the "end times" - would take place:

"Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur."

"Truly I say to you, All these things will come on this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those sent to her. How often I desired to gather your children in the way a bird gathers her chicks under her wings! And you did not desire it. 38 Behold, "your house is left to you desolate."

Nearly all of the Fathers took the Olivet Discourse (Matt 23-24, Mark 13, Luke 21) as referring to the judgment on Jerusalem in the events around a.d. 70.

Anyone steeped in Biblical symbolism, particularly Old Testament symbolism, will understand the Revelation of John.

For example, the symbolism of clouds that Christ uses always refers to judgment in the Old Testament. God came in the colds to judge Egypt, Babylon and Sodom. That's why Christ said he would 'come in the clouds' in Matthew 24. He wasn't talking about the final judgment on all mankind following the resurrection. He was talking about his Kingdom, and the New Covenant coming into fruition with the destruction of the Old Covenant temple and covenant breakers.

Anyone interested in more on this issue can contact me. There are dozens of great books on the subject as well as excellent papers online. Also see the Holy Fathers commentaries on Matthew 23, Luke 21 and Mark 13.

Most of the book of the Revelation was fulfilled during this time. We are currently living during the reign of the Lord. The one thousand years. The Lord is on his white horse advancing his Kingdom, through his Word. The nations, and all of his enemies, will come to proclaim Him as King before he returns at the resurrection!

Yet, many Church Fathers teach us Revelation is about past, present, and future events.
In the past, we know about the fall of Jerusalem and the persecution of Christians by Nero.
In the present, Revelation is all about the Divine Liturgy as the Feast of the Lamb.
In the future, yes, Christ will come again to judge the Living (the righteous) and the Dead (the damned).

However, since Christ warned us about the tremendous loss of faith when He comes again, many Church fathers also warn us to be vigilant and to pray during these End Times (time from the Ascension to the Second Coming) as the Ascension Icon serves not only as the Icon for the Feast of the Holy Ascension of our Lord into Heaven, but also as the Icon of Christ's Second Coming.

Come Lord Jesus.

[Watt]

The Revelation of John teaches us about the liturgy not as a prophecy of the future so much as a visitation of what currently takes place in Heaven. John was taken up into Heaven and he was given a glimpse of the liturgy. However, the bowls of wrath and the seals, etc., are the carrying out of God's judgment for breaking his covenant. The seals on the scroll in the Revelation are typical of the seals on covenantal, or contractual, scrolls during the old testament period. A seal of scrolls would be 'broken' open when the covenant needed to be read in a legal proceeding when one party broke the covenant. So, when one party to a covenant took the other party to court for violating the covenant they would 'break open' the wax seals on the scroll in oder to read the covenantal judgments - the stipulations for what would happen if one party broke the covenant.

In the book of the Revelation what you have is a marriage covenant. God was married to Israel, his people, and they became a whore riding on the back of the beast (Rome) to whom Israel had 'traded' herself. The judgments in the Revelation match the judgments in the book of Deuteronomy. And if you read Josephus he explains how, and when these judgments took place. He wasn't a Christian, but as a Jewish historian he understood that what he was witnessing was the covenantal judgment of God. During the final days of the siege of Jerusalem Josephus witnessed a spiral and column of clouds descend on the temple and he saw chariots and angels descending. He also witnessed a period of complete darkness that fell over the land - I believe it was for an hour, but it's been a while since I read Josephus. He viewed these signs in the heavens as the judgment of Isreal for breaking God's Covenant.

However, the remnant of Israel, who believed Christ's words were saved for they fled to the mountains as Christ commanded. They were Christ's true bride, the true bride of the Old Testament saints. Not another bride, but the faithful bride of true Israel. Unfaithful Israel who had slept with the beast, was destroyed. Their blood ran in the streets.

Now, it is true to say that this is an archetypical judgment and so the book of the Revelation certainly has some sort of indirect application today. We are still in the "day of the Lord", for the "day of the Lord" isn't a literal 'day', it is a period of time. The "age of the Lord" if you will. We are in his Kingdom which is in Heaven but comes to the Earth in the Church, and Christ is taking his dominion through the Church over the world. He is "sitting at the right hand of GOd waiting for his enemies to be made his footstool." The "Final enemy is death" which will be abolished at his second coming when Christ hands the Kingdom to the Father and the New Heavens (God and his kingdom) and the New Earth (Man, in Christ, and his kingdom which will have filled the earth by then) will come together, and the marriage supper of the lamb - which table we eat from - will continue forever. During the advance of Christ's Kingdom, the Church, we will suffer at times, and in other time we will experience glory. That is good. We must suffer since we are Christ's suffering body. Yet, we must also be glorified since we are Christ's glorified body. The history of the Church is history of suffering followed by glory, and that will continue for some time I'm sure. This is all the "day of the Lord". Eventually the Kingdom will "leven the whole lump", and "will become the largest of all trees" and the "nations will find rest in its branches", it will "cover the earth has the waters cover the sea", it is the stone that Daniel saw that grows into a mountain that "cover the earth". The Kingdom of God is his Church. The gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church's onslaught. The Kingdom will "have no end", the "great commission" will be fulfilled. We will make the nations His disciples.

The warnings of the Apostles regarding the last days had to do with the last days of the Old Covenant. Those last days they were living in. Those last days were full of Judgment, as Christ said he came to judge. His teachings were part of that judgment, and should understood in their context. It was important for them to understand, and be aware. However, the Church is now on the offensive.

Paul taught that when Christ returns he will destroy death by resurrection: 1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Paul taught that the when Christ comes it will be to destroy his LAST enemy, death. 1 Cor 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

The chronology is 1 Cor 15 is obvious. Christ is reigning now, putting his enemies under his feet, and when he returns it will be to destroy his LAST enemy, death. Then, after destroying ALL enemies, including death, He can hand over the Kingdom to the Father.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have (past tense) delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have (past tense) put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign (present), until he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

We know that death is destroyed AT his coming, thus he will not destroy all other enemies AFTER his coming, but BEFORE his coming.

As a result we should take courage. Though we suffer it is to 'fill up' that which was lacking in Christ's sufferings. In so far as the Church is his body and suffers as a sacrifice for the life of the world IN, BY, THROUGH, and on behalf the Christ. We are his body being poured out as a drink offering. We must share in his sufferings to share in his glory.

His glory will come. We've tasted of it before, when the "nations brought their glory/riches into the Church". We will taste of it again, and one day the the great commission will be fulfilled.

After that, at the very end, Satan will be released on last time to deceive the nations (Rev 20:8) but before he can destroy the Church the Christ will come and destroy him through resurrection.

That is the future. When it will happen no one knows but NOW we are to establish his Kingdom on earth - his will, in the Church, as it is in heaven.

[Mark Templet]

Dear Watt,
Welcome! And please read this with the love in which I write it. I would like to offer a few general perspectives as a convert and priest.
1) The canons of the Holy Church are there to solve problems. The only reason that they are formulated and upheld by the Church as a whole is precisely because they solved problems. Very often the problems were particular to certain places at certain times. However, there is still the spirit of the canons that must be respected. For instance, there are clear canons against praying with heretics or entering their churches (or synagogues) to pray. Prayer with heretics is dangerous to the faithful because people may begin to believe that the theological differences don’t matter. If you are not familiar with it, I suggest you read the life of Saint Maximus the Confessor to see how serious we take the truth of theology. As a result, these canons are ALWAYS enforce and absolutely prohibit membership with an organization like the WCC which requires signing onto an understanding that all churches are equal in their claims to hold the truth. This is 100% repugnant to Orthodoxy.
2) The Ecumenical Patriarch is not supposed to be on earth to please men. Even if he had to lay down his life and the lives of every Christian in Turkey, he is not allowed to compromise the truth. If he does, which he very well has on a multitude of occasions, then he has “walked off the reservation” and ceases to be a shepherd of the truth and becomes a tool of the Antichrist and the anti-church.
3) The same goes for any World Orthodox priests or faithful who continue to obey and hold communion with these false shepherds. I know there are devout and sincere people in these churches, and good priests who are honestly trying their best. But we are not called to worship God in sincerity and unity with those we disagree with; we are called to worship Him in “spirit and in truth.” In my opinion, many of these priests know darn well that what they are saying is dead wrong, but they are too attached to their positions, pensions, salaries, buildings and whatever else and are unwilling to suffer for the truth that is 100% clear in the canons and Holy Scriptures, so they rationalize and justify their positions or put the blame on their bishops.
4) If I were invited to a Protestant or Roman Catholic church to explain Orthodoxy to them because they were having doubts about what they were doing and wanted to know more about True Orthodoxy I wouldn’t hesitate to do it. I have done so in the past. However, a conference or any other such occasion where it is assumed or could be assumed that my participation is as an equal to Protestant or Roman Catholic clergy would be out of the question. I cannot do anything that even appears to compromise the truth of Orthodoxy. Of course, we are called to share this truth with everyone and must do so whenever we can “speaking the truth in love.” I agree that this is a thin line and not always easy to follow. When I get it wrong I repent and recant. But I always remember, when you mix the truth with heresy it always comes out with heresy, like mixing poison with good food—it is still poison.
5) Just so you know, there is a canon that COMMANDS us to break communion with any bishop who embraces errors. It doesn’t matter how many years we have been under him. The evidence that the World Orthodoxy bishops are in error and themselves have broken communion with all the bishops that came before them is overwhelming. When a priest is about to be ordained a bishop he make an oath that states to his brother bishops and to all bishop (past, present, and future) that he “accepts what they accept, and rejects what they reject.” If he breaks that oath he is no longer a bishop and should be canonically deposed if he will not be corrected. That means that a bishop, or just a handful of them, can't accept a new calendar for the Church, confirm the filioque, or lift an anathema against a heresy. The truth is that we see the World Orthodox as breaking communion with us, not the other way around. We are not the ones doing something different than what was being done 100 years ago.
6) You might also find the life of my namesake helpful -- Saint Mark of Ephesus the Pillar of Orthodoxy.

God help you in your search and please pray for me a sinner

Worthless Priest Mark Templet

[Maria]

Excellent post, Father Mark.