RTOC consecrated a Bishop for Serbian TOC

[jgress]

Maybe we should be careful about the use of the word "faction", nonetheless. I know that from my jurisdiction's viewpoint, Fr Akakios' group is not legitimately representative of the Serbian Church, but from their point of view it is, so using the word "faction" may be unnecessarily inflammatory. Please may everyone try to avoid inflaming passions as the feast of Our Lady approaches.

[leonidas]

Mr. "Moscowis3rdRome",

1. I am happy to inform you that there are four saints named Leonidas in the canonion of the Great Church--that is, four martyrs of the ancient church. Let me also mention Elder Leonid of Optina as a recent example. I celebrate St. Leonidas, Bishop of Athens, whose feast is on April 15. A Serb should be the last to condemn others for the use of "pagan" names as baptismal names. Whence were such names as Dragan, Nebojsa, Predrag, and Radoslav derived? The Church, however, sanctifies all.

2. By "Akakian Faction", I was attempting an objective description of a schism that is now real in Serbia. When one body or group breaks up, we may speak of the resulting groups as factions. And by Akakian, I meant that faction led by Bp. Akakios. Fragmentation is indeed a terrible process, but it is even worse when what is being fragmented is the Body of Christ. Yet, is Christ divided?

3. The unity of the Church, which should have constituted a first principle for the RTOC hierarchy, referred to both the universal church and the Serbian Church.

4. The influence of Dr. VM is seen very clearly in your charge of "Romanideism"--a straw man devised by him to divert attention from the real issues.

5. You failed to understand what I wrote. The hope of "many" was the hope for the unity of the TOC--Russian, Greek, Serbian--that would have been accomplished had it not been for the episode about which we write.

6. Cynical and slanderous, rather, is the assertion that Archbishop Kallinikos wants to subordinate the Slavic Churches, not my restatement of what Dr. VM claims.

7. Regarding the "long delays", I am referring to Dr. VM's charge that the Greek Church was stalling the union with the Tikhonites in order to prevent it. The Greek Church, you should know, has a real synodal life with bishops that take their calling seriously and expect to be consulted and to be allowed time to deliberate through the proper and canonical procedures. Patience and restraint are virtues, whereas impatient and the desire for immediate gratification are vices.

8. If the RTOC was not a real "TOC", then why would we, the GOC, be desiring union so earnestly?

Leonidas

[MoscowIs3rdRome]

["leonidas"]

Dear Mr. Despotovac,

If the provisional authority of the Greeks in Serbia was uncanonical, as you and others claim,

Not that only we, STOC clergy and layman claim its uncanonical status after one year period, but also holy fathers in the 74. canon. That rule is called ''mesitis rule'', and it is provisional because, after one year temporary administrator must be CHANGED if done nothing to ordain. That change delays for 14 years, making big problems to STOC and its stability.

then by necessity the ordinations of all the Serbian clergy are uncanonical.

Necessity is situational, real time need, not uncanonical - antilawfull, you are missing the point. Restauration is needed, but control and interference forbidden.

To elucidate: If you were justified in leaving your Ruling Hierarch for the reasons you cite,

He is not Ruling but temporary administrator, who must ordain a bishop from that local Church, or to leave in one year if he fails. Canon strictly forbids him to rule any of the people, outside of his diocese (read it in the same canon).

you cannot avoid the conclusion that his authority was invalid on Serbian territory.

Yes, after one year expiration time.

But if his authority was invalid on Serbian territory,

Yes, after one year expiration time, by canons.

then your priests are not priests and your sacraments are graceless.

Grace doesn't have expiration time, it last in any case, except heresy preaching. Give free what is given free to you by the Lord (note this, I didn't say given by Russians, I don't share your bishop giving logic (but through bishop by Christ logic) and bishop-pleasing discernment on this subject), and without interference on territory forbidden for Greek to rule.

You can't have it both ways. This is the necessary conclusion of your arguments.

Your own conclusion.

To argue that his authority was valid for a period of time defined by you and only you is unfounded and arbitrary.

Read the canon 74, time of administration has limits there.

There can be no middle ground on this question.

Yes, and you are wrong on this subject, and we are right.

Finally, you have no grounds to claim that the Greeks secretly never intended to restore the Serbian episcopate, especially since they contradict this claim explicitly and consistently in their documents.

Your documents, and real ''doing'' have almost nothing in common in practice.

You are only guessing about the true intentions of the Greek hierarchy--and guessing in a paranoid way, let me add.

We know you well.

Do you have a special insight into the hearts and minds of the Greek Bishops that we don't that would allow you to discern their intentions more clearly?

15 years of doing almost nothing in Serbia, said all.

Or are you basing your judgments on stereotypes such as one reads in the anti-Christian and racist writings of Edward Gibbon?

Guessing is on you now.

[MoscowIs3rdRome]

MoscowIs3rdRome, your personal attacks on Leonidas are not acceptable. Firstly, his name is not pagan. In fact there is a St Leonidas of Alexandria:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09179a.htm

You do not have to agree with Leonidas. You do have to respect him (and be sure I will look at everyone to make sure they respect each other).

In XC

Jonathan

Brother Jonathan,

one more word --Akakian Faction--, and he will see full disrespect towards his evil words.

Don't ask from me respect for him, if he continues to use such shameful sentences like that.

Forgive me for my hard tempered soul, and thank you for the critique, it is on its place.

[Despotovac]

The following points suggest that right now the lawful and legitimate ruling hierarch for Serbia is Archbishop Kallinikos:

A) The fact that until the day before Fr. Akakios' ordination the whole Serbian Church was commemorating Archbishop Kallinikos in their services, serving on antimensia provided by the Greek Church, and were all ordained by Greek bishops;

B) The first point cited by Metropolitan Palvos in his letter to Fr. Akakios: "Let me firstly state that the authority of the Church of Greece in the historical territories of the autocephalous Church of Serbia is based on the ancient tradition of the Church that provisionally extends the pastoral jurisdiction of a bishop over the canonical territory of a widowed neighboring see until such a time when a new bishop is canonically elected. Our God is a God of order and this inspired prescription aims at the orderly and peaceful restoration of a local episcopate, avoiding the blameworthy extremes of disorder, strife, and schism. It was in this spirit that our Church, looking forward to the eventual restoration of the Serbian episcopate, took up the provisional administration of the Church of Serbia after its hierarchy abandoned its calling and joined itself to the apostasy of the panheresy of ecumenism."

The Metropolitan further clarifies:

"As long as the Church of Greece is charged with the provisional administration of the Church of Serbia, the Archbishop of Athens and All Greece is the effective locum tenens of the Serbian primacy and therefore the ruling hierarch throughout the historical territories of the Serbian Church."

The same principle is applied in points 7-8 of St. Tikhon's famous Ukas 362:

"7. If, in the situation indicated in paragraphs 2 and 4, there is found a diocese lacking a bishop, then the Diocesan Council or, in its absence, the clergy and laity, turns to the diocesan bishop of the diocese nearest or most accessible to regards convenience or relations, and the aforesaid bishop either dispatches his vicar bishop to administer the widowed (i.e. vacant) diocese or undertakes its administration himself, acting in the cases indicated in paragraph 5 and in relation to that diocese in accordance with paragraphs 5 and 6, under which, given the corresponding facts, the widowed diocese can be organized into a special ecclesiastical district.

"8. If for whatever reason an invitation from a widowed diocese is not forthcoming, the diocesan bishop indicated in paragraph 7 undertakes the care of its affairs on his own initiative."

I should mention that the Church of Greece and the Church of Serbia are contiguous. The only other candidate would have been the Romanian TOC, but that was precluded on account of their communion with the Cyprianites.

Leonidas

Brother Leonidas set conclusions who based on the Greek point of view. We are told that Greeks do not have the right to help given to the Serbs through the annexation to the true Orthodoxy (and not to the Greek TOC) misuse to usurp authority over the Serbia without any control or responsibility. Canon listed on this point is valid because it provides a canonical order of the provisional administration of the widow Church. Greek temporary administrator for Serbia for over 15 years in remained this place even though the Serbs repeatedly asked Holy Synod of GOC of Greece for his dismissal. It should be noted that the same Greek administrator has not visited "his Serbian flock" whole 11 years?!? Why brother Leonidas does not specify canons which relates to the Bishop who have negligence for his flock? A claim that the „Archbishop of Athens and All Greece is the effective locum tenens of the Serbian primacy and therefore the ruling hierarch throughout the historical territories of the Serbian Church." is absolutely madness, absolutely unacceptable for the Serbian people and for any normal man. With such a sick attitude and for Serbia and for mission of true Orthodoxy in Serbia causes immense damage. This position is a great shame and for Serbian people that is another confirmation that the Greeks, unlike the Russians, continue their centuries-old policy of conquesting of the Serbian Church. Excuse me but you are in such a way in Serbia for itself create the big anti-commercial.

[Despotovac]

You don’t have interest in the progress of the Serbian TOC. You just look the Greek Church as much as possible to expand in others territorys and your most important task that you have to justify such actions through the canons. Is impossible to anyone from Serbia under your Greek conditions to want to move from ecumenism to the true Orthodoxy.

[MoscowIs3rdRome]

[leonidas"]

Mr. "Moscowis3rdRome",

1. I am happy to inform you that there are four saints named Leonidas in the canonion of the Great Church--that is, four martyrs of the ancient church.

Your posts, associated my memory with Greek pagan Leonidas, I unfortunately didn't heard for those holy fathers in the early Church. Deal with your own hard word and conclusions.

Let me also mention Elder Leonid of Optina as a recent example.

I know him, his name is in akatistos to holy Elders of Optina.

I celebrate St. Leonidas, Bishop of Athens, whose feast is on April 15.

Glory to that servant of God, and salvation to you.

A Serb should be the last to condemn others for the use of "pagan" names as baptismal names.

It is a Serb custom, but there are some changes recently.

Whence were such names as Dragan, Nebojsa, Predrag, and Radoslav derived? The Church, however, sanctifies all.

God knows all his Mortars by name. They actually mean something like: --fearless--, --wiling to praise God--, given by God, etc...

???(never to say that again, I warned you)?? I was attempting an objective description

Its your own, 20 000 miles distant, objectiveness, heard from a 12th hand ''source''.

of a schism that is now real in Serbia.

With some Greek fraction ''help and blessings''.

When one body or group breaks up, we may speak of the resulting groups as factions.

Brake up is only in your mind, because STOC still recognizes GTOC grace, ruling no.

And by Akakian, I meant that ???? led by Bp. Akakios.

Here you go again. I think you are the ''faction'', and all who think and dear to speak rude like you.

Fragmentation is indeed a terrible process, but it is even worse when what is being fragmented is the Body of Christ. Yet, is Christ divided?

Yes first, no second, and you know the effect of defragmentation, apparently every 2 or 3 years, its becoming your own specialty. And the reason for that is?

1. The unity of the Church, which should have constituted a first principle for the RTOC hierarchy, referred to both the universal church and the Serbian Church.

Unity, without truth, spiritual discernment and stability (very rare in your case) is impossible. See yourself as a part of the problem, if you want to see yourself as a part of solution.

4. The influence of Dr. VM is seen very clearly in your charge of "Romanideism"--a straw man devised by him to divert attention from the real issues.

That false teaching of heretic - new calendarist (on original sin, history), is the realest issue as it can be.

1. You failed to understand what I wrote. The hope of "many" was the hope for the unity of the TOC--Russian, Greek, Serbian--that would have been accomplished had it not been for the episode about which we write.

I deliberately gave my local view (for better dimension), and now I will give my global.

Hope of the many was broken, by blackmail of your bishop, that he will break communion with you if you unite with RTOC. YOU CAN'T DENY THAT!

You sacrificed union with RTOC for the stability of your own, but didn't knew, that we Serb from STOC will do something similar for our Church. We also need stability for our mission here, so the STOC interest is the most important to us. We just did, what you done already.

But, your action you call ''wise'', and our similar actions with bad, and evil names. May God cure that blindness.

6. Cynical and slanderous, rather, is the assertion that Archbishop Kallinikos wants to subordinate the Slavic Churches, not my restatement of what Dr. VM claims.

Then he must let go, diocese that doesn't belong to a Greek Church, nor its ruling. Tradition must be respected, if you want its normal development.

We must have our own bishop for stability, if you don't want to realize that, there is someone who will.

7. Regarding the "long delays", I am referring to Dr. VM's charge that the Greek Church was stalling the union with the Tikhonites in order to prevent it.

Already answered above.

The Greek Church, you should know, has a real synodal life with bishops that take their calling seriously

We saw serioucity from some of your bishops, 2 visits without even a hint of coming to Serbia, in 15 years. Thank God, not all of your bishops are like that.

and expect to be consulted and to be allowed time to deliberate through the proper and canonical procedures.

You are missing some proper canonical procedures, we feel it on our skin and every day life.

Patience and restraint are virtues, whereas impatient and the desire for immediate gratification are vices.

Every virtue must be based on discernment, or without him, they are nothing but acting and simulating piety. Spiritual discernment must be the root and the limit for every virtue, holy fathers teach.

8. If the RTOC was not a real "TOC", then why would we, the GOC, be desiring union so earnestly?

Your desire, we see in action - no action.