Exclusive: MP-ROCOR takes in entire vagante jurisdiction!

[joasia]

Xenia,

I mean after all, looking back at the history of the Church before the great schism there were countries in the West that knew Orthodoxy well before Russia or Bulgaria.

Yes. I agree. But, we were talking about after the Great Schism. So let's not confuse the issue.

In essence, they say that the Church is going to go through a very strange time, one of apostasy and that the majority of "hierarchs" will be blind men that will basically blindfold it's flock so that they fall into a pit.

And what leads to apostasy....self-will. Apostasy is the essence of defying God. And what is needed in order to come back to God....repentance. Hence, my point is made.

I really don't think it is a matter of "wills" or repentance.

What else can it be then? If you examine it closely, in respect to each individual decision, isn't it a matter of our will vs God's will? Every decision we make is based on that fact. That's why we need to confess in order to repent for our self-will of falling into sin. The holy fathers and saints were the example of how to unite personal will to God's will. And going back to my previous point, if all the hierarchs lived by God's will then all their views would be united with God and we wouldn't have these divisions.

Being placed in such chaos, I believe that we are doing rather well and I applaud those hiearchs that still have eyes to see and are able to lead souls towards salvation, regardless of administrative disagreements.

[/quote]

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? Wake up Alice. This isn't Wonderland.

[Archimandrit Nilos]

Now the way for all so called "Episcopi vagantes" with theosophical-esoteric rosicrucian background is open and practicable for the so called "world orthodoxy" like Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR. The "liturgy" ist a "Western Rite" like Sarum, Anglican and other. I think there are only political and reasons of power desciscive to incorporate such pitiful "ecclesiastical" bodies. have pity wich such creatures.
Link:http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Western.html

[nyc_xenia]

Yes. I agree. But, we were talking about after the Great Schism. So let's not confuse the issue.

Let's not, nevertheless, I think your missing my point; that of the current situation in World Orthodoxy. You know, the majority of Orthodoxy which exists in those great "Orthodox" countries.

And what leads to apostasy....self-will. Apostasy is the essence of defying God. And what is needed in order to come back to God....repentance. Hence, my point is made.

Actually a few things can lead people into apostasy, including being deceived. But before self-will, the sin which would lead people into a fall would be pride. And no, your point isn't made, because that entire sentence you quoted was misunderstood. I was talking about the falling away from the true faith by World Orthodoxy. Not the disagreements nor administrative separations among the True/Genuine Orthodox.

What else can it be then? If you examine it closely, in respect to each individual decision, isn't it a matter of our will vs God's will?

Yes, individual decisions are our choice to make, it is ours to do Gods will, or not. However, I believe that we can not always understand Gods will, and as we are made ready and reach the time for the Second Coming, men will find it harder to understand His will due to the sin and chaos which will surround them. This is not as black and white as you attempt to make it.

Example: THE CRUCIFIXION. How many of the Apostles were able to understand what was being fulfilled as it happened?

My point is simply that what you may think is not Gods will, may somehow very well be. Things do not always need to make sense to us for it to be either Gods Will or in our best interest.

Every decision we make is based on that fact. That's why we need to confess in order to repent for our self-will of falling into sin. The holy fathers and saints were the example of how to unite personal will to God's will. And going back to my previous point, if all the hierarchs lived by God's will then all their views would be united with God and we wouldn't have these divisions.

Sorry, I still disagree. There is a reason for everything and unfortunately, we can not understand everything. While the history of the early Church had an undivided presence, the Fathers still state that it would not be so in the end. Why would there be divisions? Well, we can assume to understand this to mean that the True Confessing Hierarchy which still remain with us are all "self-willed and in need of repentance", as are those in World Orthodoxy, but I believe that would be an error.

You say that if all the "hierarchs lived by God's will then all their views would be united with God". I suppose the question is, what do you mean by "all their views" and when in the history of the Church did you EVER find a time where EVERYONE agreed on EVERYTHING??? What you mention is some kind of pipe dream which is not based on reality.

As for the divisions that exist, although the True Orthodox are not all in communion, nor under the same administrative "powers" they are to some extent being kept from the real "separation" from God that exists in our days, that of the heresy of ecumenism. The religions of this world are establishing one single goal, that which will lead men to the ultimate separation from God, the worship the Antichrist. These men you are calling to "repentance" (regardless of administrative differences) are what the world has to lead them away from apostasy...Don't you get it? Why are you trying to stuff God and His will into a box?

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? Wake up Alice. This isn't Wonderland.

I don't know, you tell me.

[Ephrem]

I think you may be arguing about two different things, yet against one another.

I'm sure everyone can agree that self-will leads to perdition, and that repentance is necessary. Certainly there are divisions amongst us now, and a great apostasy all around us. The great Russian new-martyrs, as well as the prophetic Russian saints who foresaw the coming apostasy, all relate how God was punishing them for their sins. Specifically in relation to Russia, that God was punishing the nation for its disobedience. The chaos that ensued in Russia after the murder of the Tzar was seen as a punishment to Russia for the sin of Oath-breaking. This was believed by such saints as Serpahim of Sarov, Theophan the Recluse, John of San Francisco, John of Kronsdadt, Theophan of Poltava, as well as a host of New-Martyrs and confessors.

Of course, in the words of Ignatii Brianchaninov, "the apostasy is allowed by God: do not try to stop it with your powerless hand. Keep away, guard yourself from it: and this will be enough from you. Get to know the spirit of the time, study it, so as to avoid its influence as far as possible."

It seems to me, a sinner, that the apostasy is indeed the fruit of human self-will and sin. That is indeed the definition of apostasy: the falling away from God. It is also, in a sense, a punishment from God for our many sins against Him.

Yet, he has not abandoned us. While the structure of the Church has fallen, and suddenly, as Saint Theophan the Recluse prophesied, we are not left without true confessing hierarchs. Glory be to God for this! I am certain that none of our hierarchs would disagree that now is a time for repentance. In the Epistles I read from my hierarchs in ROAC, they are constantly urging us to repentance, and to redouble our efforts and prayers. They understand, however, as should we, that we cannot stop the apostasy by our repentance. It is allowed by God! We can only hope that he will make the time shorter, for the sake of us wicked and weak servants.

[joasia]

But before self-will, the sin which would lead people into a fall would be pride.

That's the definition of self-will, my dear. Pride is the absence of accepting God's will and therefore becomes self-will.

And no, your point isn't made, because that entire sentence you quoted was misunderstood. I was talking about the falling away from the true faith by World Orthodoxy. Not the disagreements nor administrative separations among the True/Genuine Orthodox.

In our days, it crosses over. Don' t you see? It's the opposite spectrum. World Orthodox fall away from the true faith which is love for God, on the one end and the Genuine Orthodox fall away from love in unity with God, which is on the other end. It's all about love.

Yes, individual decisions are our choice to make, it is ours to do Gods will, or not. However, I believe that we can not always understand Gods will, and as we are made ready and reach the time for the Second Coming, men will find it harder to understand His will due to the sin and chaos which will surround them. This is not as black and white as you attempt to make it.

So you are describing self-will which blinds man to understand God's will. That is black and white. And how can we not understand after all the examples of the history of the Orthodox faith and the teachings of the holy fathers. In our times, the hierarchs know what the right thing is, but they live by their self-will (pride) and that's why we have all these splinter groups. Each hierarch makes his decision based on his own self-will.

Example: THE CRUCIFIXION. How many of the Apostles were able to understand what was being fulfilled as it happened?

Bad example. We are living after 2000 years of Orthodox teachings which we have the privilege to read in our own language. The hierarchs who are supposedly more profoundly educated in the details of the Canons and teachings should know better.

My point is simply that what you may think is not Gods will, may somehow very well be. Things do not always need to make sense to us for it to be either Gods Will or in our best interest.

So you're saying that these divisions, within the true Orthodox groups are God's will and we should accept them as something that is right for us, by God's will? Can you elaborate on that, please? I just want to understand what you mean.

The holy fathers and saints were the example of how to unite personal will to God's will. And going back to my previous point, if all the hierarchs lived by God's will then all their views would be united with God and we wouldn't have these divisions.

Sorry, I still disagree. There is a reason for everything and unfortunately, we can not understand everything. While the history of the early Church had an undivided presence, the Fathers still state that it would not be so in the end. Why would there be divisions? Well, we can assume to understand this to mean that the True Confessing Hierarchy which still remain with us are all "self-willed and in need of repentance", as are those in World Orthodoxy, but I believe that would be an error.

The hierarchs of the true confession are resisting God's will of love just as the world Orthodox. The results are different according to how they make their decisions. The WO defy God's Canons and theology, but the confessors create divisions between themselves. Love is the key of unity with God. Both examples fail in that because they base their decisions on pride.

You say that if all the "hierarchs lived by God's will then all their views would be united with God". I suppose the question is, what do you mean by "all their views" and when in the history of the Church did you EVER find a time where EVERYONE agreed on EVERYTHING??? What you mention is some kind of pipe dream which is not based on reality.

Well, I guess I'm referring to before the Great Schism. After that all hell broke loose. The unity before that was in the Canons, dogmas and theology and based on a sincere faith in the true Church of Christ; the foundation being love. All "their views" means everything that they see is right in their eyes. It hasn't done much good for us flock.

As for the divisions that exist, although the True Orthodox are not all in communion, nor under the same administrative "powers" they are to some extent being kept from the real "separation" from God that exists in our days, that of the heresy of ecumenism.

Where's the love?

The religions of this world are establishing one single goal, that which will lead men to the ultimate separation from God, the worship the Antichrist. These men you are calling to "repentance" (regardless of administrative differences) are what the world has to lead them away from apostasy...Don't you get it? Why are you trying to stuff God and His will into a box?

I don't know what you mean about stuffing God into a box. If anything, I'm expressing exposing the love that God wants us to share. Hardly something that would stay in a box.

How can separated Synods be any effect against apostasy when they are not united amongst themselves? It's not a matter of your group or my group being against apostasy, because apostasy is gaining ground. But, I do have hope for a union of those true to Orthodox, in the end times. It will be the last stand and everyone will have to make a decision to suffer or to accept the seal. That's when we will be united as God's chosen ones.

Ephraim wrote:

I think you may be arguing about two different things, yet against one another.

I agree. That's the feeling I got. I was going to mention that, but since you brought it up, I'll leave it at this. You're words are so true. Yet, he has not abandoned us.
That is what Elder Gabriel of Pskov and Kasan always told people.

In the Epistles I read from my hierarchs in ROAC, they are constantly urging us to repentance, and to redouble our efforts and prayers.

The hierarchs should be the first example. You know, Ephraim, if they would make such a great gesture, then I know that the faithful will be revitalized. Aren't we all feeling spiritually drained and discouraged? We may not know what the hierarchs are going through, but our souls are affected by their poor decisions. I'm not a hierarch, so I can't make things happen within the Church. I can only work on myself. But, that's not what sustains a Church. It's the metropolitans, bishops and priests. Without them, we have no Church. The flock needs inspiration.

Xenia, I don't have anything against you. We just got into this discussion and don't understand where the other is coming from.

In Christ,
Joanna