What Does This Mean?

[Ephrem]

Praise God! Let us all be in one accord!

I've never seen a forum discussion reach a resolution!

Please pray for this sinner!

[Macrina]

Good answer, Ephrem. After the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, the Apostolic community, the Church, was guided in the way of all truth in a manner that did not fully exist within the community previously. The proper implications of this scripture must, then, be understood in that historical context.

What does this type of understanding imply? That the Holy Spirit taught the church something different than what Christ said, because of history, a change in time. :shock:

If so, it would seem that truth is only truth in certain "times". I've always been of the impression that God's truth is beyond such a concept as "time".

For example, I could say the same of other scriptures. Only applying them to a certain "time". Jesus said that He had other sheep that would be brought into His fold. Should i just apply that as only meaning that He meant at that time the Gentiles. Or that He implied a further truth in such words.

[Ephrem]

Macrina, I totally understand the confusion.

The implication is not that the Holy Spirit changed the truth of Christ. Perish the thought! Christ and the Holy Spirit are certainly of one accord. What was concluded was that the Apostles, when with Christ during his earthly ministry, had not yet been fully illumined by the Holy Spirit. This is significant because before the time of Pentecost, the Church was not yet founded on Earth, and it was therefore not possible to be outside of it. Therefore, the man casting out demons in the name of Christ is not comparable with modern day heretics.

The truth of Christ's teaching did not change; the apostles changed.

[Mark Templet]

We can see crystal clear evidence that Christ had not taught the Apostles everything. For instance, it is obvious that Christ had not laid out strictly how He wanted His Church to handle incoming Gentiles; if He had then there would not have been a debate among the Apostles with regards to that issue. Christ had to work within finite time with finite human limitations and therefore it was not possible to give the Apostles everything that they needed, hence why He sent the Holy Spirit to lead them into ALL truth. It was the guidance of the Holy Spirit that allowed them to get a conclusion on the Gentile issue at the First Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). This is not a case of the Holy Spirit teaching them something that was contrary to Christ's teaching, rather it was the fulfillment of it within time. It is time that we humans are subject to and why this arrangement by God is necessary.

[Macrina]

Macrina, I totally understand the confusion.

The implication is not that the Holy Spirit changed the truth of Christ. Perish the thought! Christ and the Holy Spirit are certainly of one accord. What was concluded was that the Apostles, when with Christ during his earthly ministry, had not yet been fully illumined by the Holy Spirit. This is significant because before the time of Pentecost, the Church was not yet founded on Earth, and it was therefore not possible to be outside of it. Therefore, the man casting out demons in the name of Christ is not comparable with modern day heretics.

The truth of Christ's teaching did not change; the apostles changed.

By "illumined by the Holy Spirit" you must mean comforted by the sign (such as occurred on Pentecost) of the Comforter (Holy Spirit) given to them. The Apostles were Jews. They "had no comforter" according to numerous verses in the Old Testament.
Ecc 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of [such as were] oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors [there was] power; but they had no comforter.
Lam 1:16 For these [things] I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are desolate, because the enemy prevailed.
This is why the Jews looked forward to the coming Messiah who would "comfort" them. Pentecost was their final "sign", as the Jews seek such things as signs ( 1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,...) which signify fulfillment of prophecy, in fact even Jesus knew they required such ("all be fulfilled" Matt. 5:18). And since He is their final "sign" He promised them the Comforter/Holy Spirit which was also a final fulfillment of OT prophecy for them. Pentecost was their final sign that He is the One and only Alpha and Omega.

I understand that you see Pentecost as the founding of the church. However I see it as the anointing of the Holy Spirit to those in Christ. Such an anointing gives one the ability to testify of Him (The Truth).

[Ephrem]

I understand that you see Pentecost as the founding of the church. However I see it as the anointing of the Holy Spirit to those in Christ. Such an anointing gives one the ability to testify of Him (The Truth).

We agree! The Holy Spirit "gave the apostles the ability and zeal to preach the teachings of Christ to all people" on the day of Pentecost.(from The Law of God by Archpriest Seraphim Slobodskoy.)

[Macrina]

We can see crystal clear evidence that Christ had not taught the Apostles everything. For instance, it is obvious that Christ had not laid out strictly how He wanted His Church to handle incoming Gentiles;

Even the Jews didn't know how to handle things once Christ had come.

if He had then there would not have been a debate among the Apostles with regards to that issue. Christ had to work within finite time with finite human limitations and therefore it was not possible to give the Apostles everything that they needed, hence why He sent the Holy Spirit to lead them into ALL truth. It was the guidance of the Holy Spirit that allowed them to get a conclusion on the Gentile issue at the First Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). This is not a case of the Holy Spirit teaching them something that was contrary to Christ's teaching, rather it was the fulfillment of it within time. It is time that we humans are subject to and why this arrangement by God is necessary.

I believe they had everything they needed. According to scripture about God, His people "lack no good thing". As for the "issue" at the Jerusalem council, they concluded what is commonly known as the Noahide laws for the Gentiles and they did so using the laws of their covenant. Such doesn't necessarily mean that the Holy Spirit needed to guide them in such a decision.
Since you say there is an "arrangement by God" that was necessary because we are subject to time, then what are the churches waiting for.....tick tock tick tock, time's a wastin.