Fr. Steven Allen: ROCOR, Met. Agathangel & SiR- PART 2

[Pravoslavnik]

Well, Mark, your point is well taken, but I would point out that your position seems quite different from the written opinion of the hieromartyr Metropolitan St. Cyril of Kazan vis-a-vis the Sergianist "Church" hierarchy in 1934. Many people in the modern world-- Russians, Greeks, and even Americans-- have not had ready access to an Orthodox parish other than those of the "world" Orthodox in their communities. Thus, it seems rather brazen and harsh for us to insist that all of these "world Orthodox" churches and their priests today have absolutely no grace. It may, perhaps, be true, but it is a hard saying, is it not?

Code: Select all

  I would prefer to think that "with God, all things are possible," concerning how any man can be saved.  Also, is it not true that all will be judged on the basis of what has been revealed to them?  "Those who have the Torah will be judged by the Torah," etc.

[Priest Siluan]

Well, Mark, your point is well taken, but I would point out that your position seems quite different from the written opinion of the hieromartyr Metropolitan St. Cyril of Kazan vis-a-vis the Sergianist "Church" hierarchy in 1934. Many people in the modern world-- Russians, Greeks, and even Americans-- have not had ready access to an Orthodox parish other than those of the "world" Orthodox in their communities. Thus, it seems rather brazen and harsh for us to insist that all of these "world Orthodox" churches and their priests today have absolutely no grace. It may, perhaps, be true, but it is a hard saying, is it not?

Code: Select all

  I would prefer to think that "with God, all things are possible," concerning how any man can be saved.  Also, is it not true that all will be judged on the basis of what has been revealed to them?  "Those who have the Torah will be judged by the Torah," etc.[/quote]

The question is that we are in 2010 and are not in the confused and terrible twenties or thirties years in Russia. We have few excuses now for not seeing where the truth is.... In those years in Russia (and Greece), Sergianism, Ecumenism, New Calendarism were not so "evident". For instance, Sergianists were Sergianists but were not Ecumenist... New Calendarist were New Calendarist but were not so Ecumenists...

[Mark Templet]

Pravoslavnik,
I appreciate that you want to "speak the truth in love," and I have already covered my feelings on that on the previous thread on this subject.

But let me get something straight: Are you saying that the Divine Grace of the Holy Mysteries is a function of how sincere we are?

Of course I am making no judgment about the state of anyone's soul. You use the quote "with God, all things are possible," but this doesn't mean that if a Buddhist priest celebrated the Divine Liturgy that anything happens at the epiclesis. Rather we are told by the Apostle, "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." (Rom 8:28) And how do we know that we love God and are called according to His purpose? "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments."(1 John 5:2) If it was His commandment that on the day of Pentecost that the Apostles would be led into ALL truth, and in fact that the Church "is the pillar and ground of the truth" (1Tim. 3:15) All of this coupled with the fact that Christ says that we must worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH, then what's the point of any of this if the truth is a moving target? Are we Orthodox to confess that if you are really super sincere you can have effectual Divine Grace in your sacraments despite how far from the orthodox path you travel.

I left protestantism for just this reason. I wanted bedrock! I wanted to hear the truth without apology or hand-wringing. I was so sick and tired of people who thought that they needed to straighten the Church out. THE CHURCH STRAIGHTENS YOU OUT, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

If our heirarchs can't "rightly divide the truth" then we've had it; what hope is there? If no one today can call something unorthodox heresy and say that the people involved are making their way to perdition by doing it, then the whole thing is pointless. Why bother with any of it?

[Pravoslavnik]

Mark,

I read a story once about an Orthodox saint and his disciple who attended a liturgy at a church where the priest was known to be a sinful man. The saint observed angels descending upon the altar during the consecration of the eucharist "because of the faith of the people." I do not recall the name of the saint, but I do recall the story.

Code: Select all

We fast and thank God that we are not like those other (worldly Orthodox) men.  But have we washed the Lord's feet with our tears?

 Is it possible that some harlots and publicans will enter the kingdom of heaven before those of us who strain at a gnat to observe all of the canons?

[Mark Templet]

WOW!

If you are equating sin and heresy as the same thing, then I have nothing more to say. Sin does not put one out of the Church, heresy does.
If you think that the Holy Canons of our Church are merely puritanical and that we who hold to them with our lives and the faithful in Russia who are actively persecuted for resistance to the MP over the canons, then I don't know what else to say.

As I suspected, no one has yet to actually give a counter-point to my arguments. Over and over I make a cogent case and I get this sort of self-righteous nonsense in return.

WOW!

[Ephrem]

Pravoslavnik, please understand that we must declare heretics as graceless. For they are already condemned of themselves, by their own words and actions. They are already without grace, because they denied it. They traded it for the things of this world. Our bishops are our shepherds, and we are their flocks. If the shepherd recognizes a wolf or a thief, he must point this out to the sheep. He cannot allow the sheep to believe that the wolves are sheep like them, lest they be devoured. Neither can he allow the sheep to believe that the thieves are shepherds, too, lest they be led astray!
It is true that in many places these wolves and thieves have devoured and led astray many, even of the very elect themselves. There are, as you say, many places where there are no true orthodox parishes, but only ecumenist churches. How much more so, then, is it imperative that our bishops hold fast to the truth delivered unto them! How much more important it is that the shepherd be on guard when the wolves have dressed themselves in sheep's clothing!
Know, then, that our bishops, who have condemned the heretics, are "worthy of due honor among the orthodox... for not bishops, but false bishops and false teachers have they condemned!" (Canon XV of the so-called First-Second Council)