House of Romanovs Wants Royal Remains Examined

[Kybihetz21]

My comments regarding all the above mentioned issues and facts:

Position of the “Kirillovichi” branch regarding the Ekaterinburg remains:

They resented (still do, they are "haters" :bump: ) the fact that other Romanovs and members of other royal families were asked to provide DNA while they were pushed to the side as not being as compatible as let’s say, Grand Duchess Olga’s son, or the Duke of Edinburgh, or other close living relatives (at the time) of the martyred Imperial Family. They had also become allies of the late Aleksei II, whose hate and dislike of both the émigrés and the other branches of the family was widely known, and they mutually used each other to support their false cause (the “patriarch’s” and the “Kirillovichi’s”).

Kirillovichi’s wealth:

“Grand Duke”/Prince George’s statement about the origin of the money that helped support their cause is erroneous. Everyone knows that although at the beginning they were able to survive on the grace of relatives and by selling jewelry, it was not until Miss Helen Kirby’s money came around (his aunt), that they were able to live quite a well off life (meaning, no jobs or big worries, unlike their other Romanov relatives). Miss Kirby’s money helped them quite a lot, and financed all their ideas, schemes and plans.

Pavlovichi branch:

It was Dimitrii Pavlovich’s son, Paul R. Ilynskiy, who was mayor of Palm Beach (the city island across from West Palm Beach, Florida, not the whole county) for quite a few years. He was very Americanized, and so are his children, all raised in a modern American way, although to my knowledge they were baptized in the Orthodox Church (in Miami, Florida, at the former ROCA parish of St. Vladimir), but never attend any services. An excuse they give is that in Cincinnati, where they live, there are no Orthodox churches, which is a big lie, since there have been both new and old calendar parishes there for a very long time; one of Paul Ilynskiy’s granddaughters was killed in a automobile accident a few years ago, and was given a protestant service. They all have American names, but like the idea of being “Russian Princes and Princesses” when they are invited to balls, public events, etc., although most (if not all) of them cannot speak a word of Russian, and have no knowledge of Russian and Orthodox customs at all.

Remains in Brussels:

At the Church of St. Job the Much Suffering, in Brussels, there is a box, located in the sanctuary (encased in a wall of the actual church building), with some remains of the Imperial Family (all that was found by Sokolov during his investigation right after the martyrdom of the family, including pieces of bone, skin, clothing, jewelry, icons, etc). Right up to the discovery of the other remains, in the 80s and 90s, these were the only confirmed remains of the martyred Imperial Family to be known as authentic. ROCOR wasn’t necessarily skeptical about the new remains found in Ekaterinburg, but more like concerned and scandalized at the way they were being treated, since we have to remember that they had been glorified by the ROCA a few years before the discovery, and those scientists were dealing with possible (already confirmed) relics, just the bones of a dinosaur or a dog.

Burial of Grand Duchess Leonida Georgievna:

Typical soviet news, nothing new under the sun … the statement that she was the last member of the Imperial Family that was born in Imperial Russia, along the facts that she “lived there and had education there” by Mr. Feodoroff, are nothing but laughable. The LAST member of the Russian Imperial Family that was born in Imperial Russia was Princess Ekaterina Ioannovna, who reposed in 2007. When “Grand Duchess” Leonida was born, she was NOT a member of the Imperial Family, but just a princess of a younger branch of the dethroned Royal Family of Georgia (she was born as Leonida Bagrationi-Mukraneli, or Leonida Bagration-Muxranskaia, in the Russian form). Notice too in the news cast, the lack of knowledge about Orthodox services expressed by the Russian reporters! They also imply that with Leonida Georgievna’s death her daughter becomes the new head of the Imperial Family, another error, since Maria Vladimirovna has been the head of her own “Imperial Family” (herself, her mother and her son) since the death of her own father. I couldn’t see any of her Bagration relatives in the short video, but probably some of her cousins or grand nephews/nieces attended the ceremony, although she was not that close to her own family. I did see Archbishop Kirill of San Francisco from the MP (former ROCOR) among the present/celebrant clergy. One last note, it is funny how they keep calling the Romanovs “Royal Family”, when Russia never had a “Royal Family” per se, but a Grand Ducal, and later, Imperial, Family.

End notes:

The only ones that doubt the remains among the surviving members of the family are the Kirillovichi, and we all know why. The rest of them acknowledge them to be the real and official remains.

[Catherine5]

Kyb, that is great how you have explained all this in a way which we can grasp and which resonates.
Before I came here and found your a propos comments,
I had checked the same Royalty website where I found that earlier video; there was a new writeup.
It trashes "GD" Leonida, and I was wondering whether it would polite to post it.
But your account gives me impetus to do so. Both what you said and what the poster from Tblisi, Georgia on that Royalty site strike a far more accurate chord than the rather disquieting accounts out there which really leave one wondering - a lot !

Thanks so much for clearing up much of the confusion. I still may have more questions.
Actually one pops up: after this fascinating expose here about the poor behavior of Leonida to ROCOR, why would an MP-ROCOR Archbishop go there.
The rest of MP-ROCOR, as Joasia aptly termed it, today barely seems to paying the slightest attention to this event. Are they anti-monarchists, or skeptical about these problems, OR more likely to me, chattering away about trivia ?

About Leonida and Alexei's close pal-dom, you hit it right, sounds like to me.
I did NOT care for the mention by Patriarch Kirill that "GD" Leonida had
ASSISTED THE UNIFICATION OF THE RUSSIAN CHURCH -
that horrible euphemism for the takeover of ROCOR.
Those words are meaningless to outsiders, so vague are they.
Later: I just saw the short video which emphasized the same point. She must have had a major role which was never publicized.
Seems to be almost all the MP and officials can think of to say about her: sounds worse and worse as we delve in here.

We here know what they mean.
Sounds very suspicous to me Leonida's role in - maybe lobbying heavily and teaming up with daughter Maria too? - any pliable ROCOR bishops to 'quickly unite' with Alexei II, that it would be so good for the sake of their dynasty or blah blah...
I am surmising.

About the money inherited, I thought Georgy sounded ingenuous; and about so much else. I would not believe the guy about anything as a result. He seems like a slick operator type.
Here's a little more detail about the aunt you mentioned, Kyb, Helen Kirby.
So sad how all these descendants sound like pure phonies! Don't even care about the religion of their ancestors. A Protestant 'service' ??? Phew!

kyb, do you have any idea as to what the dubious business the author refers here was?
Indeed, this article, taken together with your notes, form most objective and complete coverage so far.

Now i remember having read about that escape to a GREEK Church in Switzerland. This fills out the reasons why, however! With Russian Church Abroad parishes nearer, for example Biarritz, France, and dotting the Cote d'Azur, it's unbelievable the couple went there. I'd say something was wrong from the very start in the match and perhaps Vladimir Kirillovich was easily manipulated OR he simply picked the wrong woman to marry who pushed him aggressively - that seems to be the hallmark of the women in their family - before he could even think twice about it. Does not say much for her.

SO MANY other questions: Maksim Gorky helped them leave? He was El Communist ! The Sovs did not name a prominent park after the writer for nothing!
What really is the story here. I don't care for all this coziness with Communists from the start to the finish.
No information is given as to WHY Leonida married a thrice-married American, either. She may have been either emotionally unstable or grabbing for money...any ideas, Kyb to shed light here ?
She wasn't that beautiful either, why would Vladimir Kirillovich have been so under her let's say SPELL ?

(The Truth about Leonida Georgievna Kirbi (Bagration-Mukhranski)

Part 1
Leonida Georgievna was born 23 (on October, 6th) 1914 in Tiflis (Tbilisi), in a family of the former leader of Dusheti district nobility of Tiflisky province - prince George Aleksandrovicha Bagration -Muhransky and of the Polish noblewomen origin Elena Sigizmundovna Zlotnitskaja. (Daughters of the linear controller of Vladikavkaz railways. Cheslava-Sigizmund Zlotnitsky).

Leonida Georgievna belonged to the Muhransky high-nobiliary branch of Bagrationis, branche separated from reigning Bagrations in the beginning of 16 century and owned «Mukhrani fief». It is necessary to notice that the lawful head of the House of Bagrations lives in Georgia till today, HRH Crown Prince Nugzar Petrovich Bagration of Georgia, the direct descendant of last King of Georgia - George XII.
Thus, Leonida Georgievna from father side does not belong even to the reigning House of Bagrationis, but from one of the line which representatives never occupied the Throne of Georgia.

In 1921 after overthrowing of the Menshevic government of Noe Zhordania, George Bagration- Mukhransky family has gone abroad, however in 1923 they have returned back. In 1931 the family by means and help of M.Gorki has left the USSR. Leonida Georgievna has grown in France, and in 1934 in Nece has married the American financier Samner Moore Kirbi. For Mr. Kirbi it was already a third marriage. From this marriage in 1935 daughter Elena was born. In 1937 the couple has divorced. Samnera Moore Kerbi was waited by sad destiny, in 8th of April 1945 he was lost in German camp Buhenvald.

With the beginning of the Second World War friends have helped Leonida Georgievna with daughter Elena, to leave for Spain. There in 1946 the citizen of the USA Mrs. Leonida Kirbi, has got acquainted with the Head of the Russian Imperial House Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich. On August, 13th, 1948 on the eve of the "Uspensky post" [Dormition Fast- c5] they have secretly got married in the Greek church in Switzerland.

On this moment it is necessary to concentrate more carefully on this particular case. In 1911 Princess of Imperial Blood Tatyana Konstantinovna has decided to marry by love on prince Konstantin Aleksandrovich Bagration-Mukhranski, the second cousin of the Leonidas father Georgi. This marriage has been estimated as morganatic by the Russian imperial House. Emperor Nikolay II asked the permission to fulfilment of marriage to Empress Maria Fedorovna as the senior in a sort. From Princess Tatyana Konstantinovna was taken renunciation of Throne rights of succession. (Later "the moving chancellery of Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich" has tried to hide this left-handed marriage).

Thereby unequal position Bagration – Muhransky in relation to Romanovs was underlined. It is indicative, as senator Korevo, without assuming in 1922 whom the successor of Grand duke Kiryl Vladimirovicha will select to itself in spouses, resulted marriage of prince of Imperial Blood of Tatyana Konstantinovna with prince Bagration – Mukhranski as a left-handed marriage example «with the person who does not have own advantage, that is not belonging to any reigning or sovereign house».

It is necessary to notice also that the Synod of Russian Orthodox Church Abroad having received the telegramme of the aunt of Vladimir Kirillovicha – HIH. Grand duchess Elena Vladimirovna, the princess of Greece, has then forbidden wedding of the Grand duke with Mrs. Leonida Kirbi . But they have hastily left to Switzerland and got married in the Greek church. (Vladimir Kirillovich will explain later it in "naive" tradition: «Then in Madrid there was no orthodox church (!!!!) the Nearest was in Lausanne (Switzerland), therefore we have gone there»...)

Thus Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich - in 1948 has entered the MORGANATIC MARRIAGE from dissolved American civil Mrs. Leonida Kirbi, nee Bagration-Muhranski. After that marriage almost all Members of the Russian Imperial House have torn the relations with Vladimir Kirillovich. The exception was made by his uncle - Grand duke Andrey Vladimirovich, itself married to ballerina Matilde Kshesinsky. As to the Russian colony in Madrid, it has stopped any relations with Vladimir Kirillovich, considering that Leonida Georgievna cannot name itself "grand duchess" in any way.

It is necessary to notice that the family of Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich - after unworthy and doubtful business - of operations of prince Irakli Bagration-Mukhranski (brother of Leonida Georgievna and grandfather of David), there were rather intense relations with generalissimo F.Franko and for some years they have been compelled to leave Spain.

---

Part 2

In 1953, at Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich and Leonida Georgievna was born the daughter, Maria Vladimirovna, nowadays self-appointedly claiming the Russian Throne. In 1969 Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich declares the daughter «the successor of the Russian throne». However their Highnesses Princes of Imperial Blood- Vsevolod Ioannovich, Roman Petrovich and Andrey Aleksandrovich «as representatives of three branches of the Russian Imperial House» declared the protest. In the protest in particular it was said that «the marital status of the Spouse of Prince Vladimir Kirillovich equally with what Spouses of other Princes of Imperial Blood have, and we do not recognize behind her the right to be called as "grand duchess". This split remains till today; the majority of recent descendants of the House of Romanovs did not recognize use of a grand-ducal title by Leonida Georgievna.

For the first time after emigration Leonida has visited Russia together with Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich from 5th to 11th of November, 1991. After death of the spouse, in 1992 Leonida Georgievna even more often began to visit Russia.

After of criticism act from Archbishop Antony of Los-Angeles in address of Vladimir Kirilovichs branch, Leonida Georgievna has publicly renounced Russian Orthodox Church [A]broad.

In 1992 under the order of the president of the Russian Federation Boris Yeltsin, to Leonida itself and daughter Maria and grandson George have handed over passports of citizens of the Russian Federation, later of that, on elections of 1993 Leonida Georgievna has acted with support of the Kremlin and on elections in the State Duma was agitating for the authorities. (A democratic choice of Russia).

After death of Vladimir Kirillovicha, the name of head of the House of Romanovs began to use his daughter – Maria Vladimirovna, Leonida Georgievna helped in all her daughter, together they arranged «the highest visits», distributed "imperial" orders, ranks and titles.

Since 1995 Leonida Georgievna tried to achieve de jure recognition of "the Russian Imperial House», addressing in the letter to the chief of Security service of the president to general A.V.Korzhakov she tried to manage to get "the guest house in St.-Petersburg or in Moscow, or in immediate proximity from them".

One more political action made by Leonida Georgievna was a propaganda trip across Russia in support of Boris Yeltsin on presidential election of 1996.

So in Paris under the patronage of Leonida Georgievna has arisen «Committee of support of Boris Yeltsin». Here, what exactly was told by the princess about Yeltsin: «these days I communicate with common people and I try to convince them that Boris Yeltsin - the true Russian man. I am well familiar with him and I can testify: he sincerely loves Russia and wishes no evil. He was not afraid to throw down a challenge to communistic system, has returned to Russians the historical truth, religion. Thanks to him reforms in Russia are carrying out. It is possible to speak freely. Freely to visit each other. Certainly, lots of problems remains. But each time, coming to Russia, I am convinced that it all becomes independent, more strong and finds lines of the civilised state ».

...The whole epoch has gone - an epoch in which all terrible fatal events of the last century were reflected. Leonida Georgievna personified old tradition in dialogue and behaviour.

All who personally knew her remember her proud bearing, the polite and attentive conversation full of advantage speech – speech of the person born before revolution.

It is so sad to observe nowadays - vulgar behaviour of her daughter Maria and grandson George – such a contrast … …[YES! - C5]

eternal rest to her!

--"All Russia Monarchic Center" 2010

[jgress]

Yes thank you for clearing that up Kybihetz. I got my information about the ROCOR position from mainstream media, which usually garbles these kinds of details. So if I understand it right, Met Vitaly and the ROCOR Synod never actually expressed opposition to the recognition of the Yekaterinburg remains?

[Kybihetz21]

To answer your questions:

Let me clarify the fact that, although there were mixed feelings, most Russian émigrés, including the episcopate and clergy of the ROCA, were distrustful of the validity of the remains found in Ekaterinburg. I personally find them to be the real bodies of the Imperial Family and their servants, but the fact that the bodies were found, and then reburied, and then examined by soviet doctors and scientists, made the Russian emigration mistrust the real intentions of those performing the investigations and inquiries. On this issue I have sided with science, and not anti soviet furor, although by my writings you could deduce otherwise. I must also explain that the reasons that gave us suspicion regarding the bodies found in Ekaterinburg are much different from the ones given by the MP and the Kirillovichi branch. They acted on political and ambitious motives, while we did on credible doubt and mistrust of the soviet government. You must remember that the remains in Brussels were found by a White Army commission, and the ones in Ekaterinburg by soviet amateurs. Draw your own conclusions.

It may be also understood that, contrary to the new movement that has originated in the last few years, the hierarchs of the Church of Russia were NOT against the Tsar, and did not support either the Masonic, or the Judeo Communist revolutions of 1917. They found themselves in a difficult position, similar, I will dare to say, than the one experienced by both St. Patriarch Tixon and Metropolitan Sergei (Stragorodskii), with the difference that both the Hierarchal Council (Arxiereiskii Sobor) and the holy patriarch were able to avoid destructive compromise, while Metropolitan Sergei fell in the trap created by the vicious communists. Some will see the Russian Church as a servant of the state, and although the reforms of the XVIII century rulers made the life of the Church difficult, it cannot be compared to the persecution and subjugation caused by the soviets. The Russian bishops were, in their majority, monarchists. They understood the principle of church – ruler symphony, inherited from Byzantium, and once in exile they ardently endorsed the idea of a return of an Orthodox monarch to the Russian land. Along with Church divisions came divisions among the Romanovs and other Russian nobles and aristocrats, some supporting the ROCA and some the Paris Jurisdiction, although the Church itself was not a great arbiter between the monarchist and the Romanov family divisions. It was until the 70s and 80s that ROCOR supported the Kirillovichi, mainly for the fact that they were the elder members of the family (genealogically speaking), but that relationship turned sour when they realized that both Kirill Vladimirovich and his family had just used the Church Abroad for their own purposes, and were playing a double game by paying servitude to the MP once they realized the great political and economical advantage of the soviet patriarchate. It was not until recently, around the time when the Unia took place, than the betrayer bishops of the old now defunct ROCA, restarted conversations with Kirillovichi. This was done to further their ties to the MP, as well as to seek recognition from more entities, no matter how unlawful they were to be.

The article posted seems to be either a bad machine translation or just a posting by someone who is not fluent in the English language. I will try to go thru it quickly to clear any comments expressed by the author.
Leonida Georgievna indeed was a member of a junior branch of the family, let say, like the Oldenburg or Leuchtenberg families were to the Romanovs (i.e. still members of the family, but not necessarily in line of succession). It must be understood that, although the Bagration family WAS a ruling family, they were NOT, during the Russian Empire, anything else more than high titled nobility, the same than the Cantacuzene, Yusupov, and any other noble Russian family that originally had ruled some part of the world but had become vassals to the Romanov family. The idea that they were just a dethroned family living in exile in Russia is ludicrous, as they were mere “Serene Highnesses”, and not even in the same level than the Germanic “Serene Highnesses” (they were NOT considered equal).

Nobody will ever know the circumstances of their flight from Georgia and the collaboration of Maxim Gorki, since all official accounts come from those mentioned here, and are dubious at its best. We must mention that Leonida’s sister went back to Georgia, and to my understanding, they never saw each other again, she (the sister) dying in 1983 (I believe), before they could be reunited again, and after spending some years in a soviet prison (that’s what those that support soviets get, so with them you never win, always lose).

Leonida’s first husband was Sumner Moore Kirby, an American millionaire of Jewish ancestry (or so they say). He was subsequently (after they divorced) transferred to a German concentration camp where he died. His daughter Helen (Helene Kirby, “Countess Dvinskaia”, title given to her by Kirill Vladimirovich) became the heiress and future supporter (financially) of her mother and relatives.

Yes, it is true that the marriage of Tatiana Konstantinovna was not an equal marriage, although Emperor Nicholas II tried to downplay the fact in order not to offend the bride’s father, Grand Duke Konstantin Konstantinovich, whom he greatly appreciated and loved. Theirs was indeed a morganatic marriage, and her descendants lost the succession to the throne, both because of the marriage, and by her renunciation to it, which was done every time a female member of the Russian Imperial Family married a foreign royal or noble.

It is a fact that the ROCOR bishops put an interdict on the marriage (at the request of the bridegroom’s aunt!!!), and they, just like his parents had done, looked for another Orthodox Church not under the Russian bishops (in this case, a Greek one), where they were married. I personally knew of a Russian Church in Madrid, albeit small (that’s where Maria Vladimirovna was baptized and married) so the idea that there was no Church in Madrid, or nothing closer than Lausanne, is preposterous (there are so many churches in France and Italy, much closer to where they lived). It is a fact that Leonida Georgievna was not technically a “princess” (kniazhna, i.e. unmarried princess) but already a divorced woman of a Jewish businessman.

Without further maligning the name of the reposed Leonida Georgievna, we must express that she was indeed a malicious and ambitious woman, who saw the opportunity of helping her family by marrying an old millionaire (Kirby) and then realized the great chance life had presented her when she met Vladimir Kirillovich (being a possible Grand Duchess and even Empress was too tempting), therefore the hasty marriage. Kirill Vladimirovich was not necessarily an evil person, but his life was ruled by the ambitions of his parents, spouse and daughter, and obviously fed by his own.

The Kirillovichi, just as they did during the February revolution, as well as they have done since then, have found and used every opportunity they had, by means of political, ecclesiastical, or cultural intrigues, to advance their ambitions to the Russian throne, whether existent or not. You can really see the spirit of Maria Pavlovna rule, since all her descendants have aimed towards the same objective.

Yes, it is indeed very sad to see how the Romanov family has also come to an end. Holy Russia only lives in the memories of those who loved her.

[jgress]

Yes, it does appear that no one with the name Romanov will assume the throne of Russia. On the other hand, Archbiship Theophan of Poltava, following earlier sources, believed strongly that a MATERNAL descendant of the Romanovs would one day rule Russia. Vladimir Moss believes this may take place after the current neo-Soviet regime is destroyed in World War Three, which is getting closer every day.

[Catherine5]

The writeup was amazing, Kybihetz.

This is the type of thing I really like and hope we can generate all the time on THIS site so that it attract balanced and intelligent readers who yearn to know the REAL truth about this or any topic under discussion.

Ideally, readers from various backgrounds, not necessarily Orthodox, too, will know they can count on writers here to provide a REAL, and objective viewpoint, calmly stating the problems or negative sides about any matter. Without condemning individuals, it's very important to know what their characters are like.
I don't hold any bad feeling the departed Leonida. How can I? I never knew her, and am enjoying now learning much more about her.

However even hearing that one adjective: malicious, opens up volumes of insight which I would not find sifting through all the reams of info - most of which is re-constituted from one or two original sources, with little new perspective added.

There are royalty sites to debate some angles, but of especial interest too is the "Rocor connection" which interested readers here can learn about. Fascinating.
I remember looking at the pics of Gr. duke Kirill with ROCOR European luminaries.
I was struck by how cross he looked! The purported Romanov heir was stiff, seemed ill at ease with the ROCOR hierarchs, unpleasant, barely tolerating the meeting or photo op, couldn't wait to get out of it- ??
Those pictures left me with a lasting poor impression of him.

Neither did there seem to be all that many photos out of the huge volume, considering the close ties that should theoretically have been formed between monarchist-leaning ROCOR and claimants to the throne. Perhaps the rift over the marriage explains that.
I didn't understand about the Bagration guy's aunt asking for the denunciation of the Grand Duchess Tatiana marriage with ther nephew! That sounds intriguing. Why would she have done that, and was she involved with ROCOR, or why did she seek the interdict from them?
What does the interdict mean? That no ROCOR clergy can perform a marriage, or that the Church refuses to sanction it in general?

Double game, yes, that explains the uncomfortable feeling I get from all of the Kirillovichi. ALL of them. I think I like Ducky the best.

Today is St John Maximovitch's birthday, 114 years ago. He must have been quite different toward the Kirillovichi than his brother Bishops. No matter what, St John's emotions of loyalty were in the right place, but maybe the candidates for that loyalty were not made from the right stuff. Out of the goodness of St John's heart, he failed to see this rank political maneuvering they were involved in.

My conclusion based on the helpful accounts above about the Kirillovichi could be summed up as
"Romanov was their name and Politics was their game" <

Church was a mere formality at the very best. How else could Gr. duke Vladimir have agreed to be married in a Greek church when he was descended from the Russian Empire's last ruling dynasty? No Church feeling in HIM, clearly.

It would be different if they had emigrated to the U.S. and become business magnates or something requiring deep immersion in the secular world. But they had nothing AT ALL to do with their time except float. Hence the lack of any signs of interest in Church life is disconcerting.

Though the prophecy of Abp Theophan is quite interesting, I suspect the Romanov days are dead and gone. Maybe he meant a maternal descendant of the earlier Russian dynasty, now much forgotten by imperial and royal watchers. Of course tracing them and verification would be quite another matter.
Maybe this burial of Leonida symbolized that flickering out of the historical flame of the second dynasty, the Romanovs.

The current claimants are too grasping thus may not be favored by Heaven anyway. I believe they are most tepid in their interest in the Church.
I watched 'GD' Georgy cross himself in one the funeral clips just now.
He struck this observer as a little awkward, as though going through the motions expected of him. And aware that the TV audience would be forming immpressions of him as a figure of consequence in the future, or not.

It's too early to draw a comparison, but I think I detect a similarity with the Shah of Iran's heir, known as Reza Pahlavi. He styles himself Shah, or something similar. Yet he talks up democracy like a storm hoping to get the US govt to land him back in the Teheran driver's seat. He's not convincing to me.
He, like Georgy, exudes immaturity, roughness, in contrast to the refined, noble dignity of his father, the late Shah, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi.

Maria Pavlovna the Elder ---
-- like the Agrippina the Elder and Younger nomenclature... The younger was of course Gr Duke Dmitry's elder sister - there is wonderful footage on youtube of BOTH Elder and Younger Maria Pavlovnas in a procession at the court of Tsar Nicholas II.
A list of others present is helpfully given in one of the comments beneath the clip. Grand Duchess Elizabeth, by then an Abbess, Grand Duchess Xenia, Kirill, Ducky and many others are visible quite close up.
If anyone is interested, consider posting a comment on any of these; I think it helps to give support and show appeciation to those who post these historic clips so we can see today who were these characters being discussed here and in general history:

--- was Kirill's mother, Miechen, remembered for her single-minded ambition for her offspring, right? I think she never converted during her life to Orthodoxy from Lutheran Protestant.
Amazing, then, the craving for political power in Russia yet WITHOUT a shred of feeling for the Church. Maybe this passed down through her entire line. Ducky too was a [former?] Lutheran who probably never set foot in Orthodox Churches outside of her wedding or protocol.

I have many more questions. Why were the Russian nobility in that Paris jurisdiction, that was Met Evlogy's? I'm quite hazy on that except for my impression that he was a traitor to ROCOR.
It's the Rue Daru Cathedral, I assume. Why did that go with the Evlogians rather than ROCOR, I always wondered.

[mmcxristidis]

[quote="Catherine5"]The writeup was amazing, Kybihetz.

This is the type of thing I really like and hope we can generate all the time on THIS site so that it attract balanced and intelligent readers who yearn to know the REAL truth about this or any topic under discussion.

Ideally, readers from various backgrounds, not necessarily Orthodox, too, will know they can count on writers here to provide a REAL, and objective viewpoint, calmly stating the problems or negative sides about any matter. Without condemning individuals, it's very important to know what their characters are like.

Yes, this site could one day become the home of the Orthodox intelligentsia with writers like you answering complex theological questions. Pity you were born female, you would have made a great bishop. Please feel free to answer my question, as dumb as it may sound, which I'm posting now in Praxis, if you feel so inclined. Thanks