ROCOR and Moscow Reunification [sic]

[mtcarmel]

Sigh...

Yes, I was aware of the "kidnapping" of the senile bishop Vataly in @ 2001 when the the photos showed up on the internet. In my view there has been disinformation on both sides. So he retired on his own and some from among your people pulled him back into power for his symbolic value? It seems to me that your group(s) is/are disolving into smaller & smaller schismatic sects as you break off even from among your own selves. Doesn't sound too healthy from my p.o.v. One of the most informative books I've read over the past 2-3 was the published by Holy Transfiguration on the Greek Old Calendarist movement. One impression I got from the book was that the Greeks had backed thmselves into such a corner that only the good graces of ROCOR that they were able to make new bishops after the old ones had begun to die out.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Russian_Orthodo ... h_in_Exile

The hard-core ROCOR in resistance brings to mind the Japanese soldier who was so deeply entrenched in his cave on a jungle island that he was still fighting 29 years after the Japanese had surrendered. It would be tragic if you allowed yourselves to enter into a similar mindset.

http://tinyurl.com/muvf4j

Again what are the articles in the ukaze from Met. Tikhon which allow Russian bishops to rule over non-Russian diocese an ocean away? I recall some mention of
"neighbors" helping the struggling bishops who left mother Russia in order to live on until the time of return. But to come all the way to America to try and take over the Orthodox Church? I think Anthony kept his title Metropolitan of Kiev and Galicia until he died. For those who claim to have kept the canons this seems like a very long stretch. But I'm sure there are those of creative mind who can justify the apparent disparities.

Some might say, "Alaska was the first Orthodox land in North America." True... and it still remains Orthodox in spite of the vicious politics that try and tear the church apart there. In all honesty ROCOR's attempt to establish a foothold in AK is not a story most in ROCOR wish to open to the general public.

You all have enough troubles of you own. No power will be grabbed by a marginal group or groups now bickering among themselves. How shall you resolve this psychologically? Many of you are inwardly possessed by Russia past, present, and future yet you live in a radically Protestant-minded individualistic society, the product of the English Enlightenment that is quickly becoming Marxist in regards to secular politics. This cannot be a recipe for personal inner stability.

The church photo is one in the Euphrosyne archives. I'd wanted to use a picture from a set of 1917 WWI cards depicting allied leaders of the Great War. Tsar Nicholas II was one of the cards. I thought it ironic that the set would come out (printed in UK) the year the tsar was killed.

elias

[Catherine5]

Did you have to contact the Admin to have the picture added?
I was looking at how to do that and it wasn't clear from the FAQs.

Pravoslavnik needs one now too, I just noticed he is an older poster but still lacks a visual reference!

The Japanese soldier story was really fun to read.
How considerate of the Lt's commander to come all the way to his Philippine island in order to tell him to leave off his struggle.

Reading the rather dismal ROCiE account reminded me that Bp Varnava's actions were erratic too.
Anyone know what the scandal of which the article spoke with his hieromonk was? The article implies that was the reason he bailed out of ROCie. I always wondered why Bp Varnava so speedily went back to the ROCOR-L fold.

Maybe the Alaska situation is too complex to describe, but was ROCOR trying to gain a foothold but lost it due to OCA maneuverings?
Speaking of lone strugglers keeping a flame aloft as desert-dwellers on very remote islands, regardless of outer world events, Archimandrite Gerasim [Schmaltz] sympathized with ROCOR and had no time for the Metropolia/OCA.
But his influence out there on Spruce Island would have been negligible over the jurisdictional scene.

Why aren't any of ROCOR's offshoots thinking about this saintly ascetic as a possible candidate for glorification?
Archimandrite Gerasim prepared the way for St Herman of Alaska's reemergence in the popular imagination leading to his eventual canonization. Fr Gerasim went to the Island and almost never left it for 30 years, til his repose! Just as faithful as the Imperial Japanese soldier to his own commission to guard a place, in the monk's case, received miraculously from Elder Herman himself in a vision.
Fr Gerasim was one who practiced real monasticism, which he learned from real Elders at St Tikhon of Kaluga Monastery, and was thus a fervent transmitter of the best traditions of Imperial Russia.

He's way more viable in my opinion than two of those recently given the "Orthodox 'fast track'"- !
Those men, however popular, pious, or good seminary professors, lack evidence of the deep sanctity of the great ROCOR Hierarch saints.

[Pravoslavnik]

Mt. Carmel,

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    I have a few questions and comments related to your last post.  (in red below)  My purpose is not to change your mind, but to clarify these important historical issues, and their implications for the Church today.[/color]

Sigh...

Yes, I was aware of the "kidnapping" of the senile bishop Vataly in @ 2001 when the the photos showed up on the internet. In my view there has been disinformation on both sides.

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  [color=#FF0000]1) What evidence do you have that the late Metropolitan Vitaly was truly "senile" when he was deposed by then-Archbishop Laurus (Skurla) in 2000?  A psychiatrist in Quebec subsequently found him competent, and the New York Supreme Court declined to grant legal guardianship to ROCOR Bishop Gabriel.  On the contrary, the New York Supreme Court ruled that the abduction of the Metropolitan by the ROCOR-Laurus appeared to be part of a mysterious political struggle within the Russian Orthodox Church, and that there was no evidence of any concern for the Metropolitan's welfare on the part of the ROCOR-Laurus Synod.

     2)  What do you make of the fact that the late Metropolitan was treated so violently, and, indeed, shamefully, by his abductors from Jordanville?  As an Orthodox Christian, do you find their conduct at all troubling?[/color]

So he retired on his own and some from among your people pulled him back into power for his symbolic value? It seems to me that your group(s) is/are disolving into smaller & smaller schismatic sects as you break off even from among your own selves. Doesn't sound too healthy from my p.o.v.

Did some "Orthodox" people not say precisely the same things about St. Mark of Ephesus during and after the false Council of Florence? There were only a small handful of dissenters among the Orthodox at the time, yet we now venerate St. Mark as a true "pillar" of Orthodoxy, do we not?

One of the most informative books I've read over the past 2-3 was the published by Holy Transfiguration on the Greek Old Calendarist movement. One impression I got from the book was that the Greeks had backed thmselves into such a corner that only the good graces of ROCOR that they were able to make new bishops after the old ones had begun to die out.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Russian_Orthodo ... h_in_Exile

The hard-core ROCOR in resistance brings to mind the Japanese soldier who was so deeply entrenched in his cave on a jungle island that he was still fighting 29 years after the Japanese had surrendered. It would be tragic if you allowed yourselves to enter into a similar mindset.

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 [color=#FF0000]A poor analogy.  The Japanese soldier was fighting against a decent and just foe.  His nation had started the war (against the U.S.) by bombing Pearl Harbor.  In contrast, those within the former ROCOR who have resisted the union with the Moscow Patriarchate are holding out against a "foe" that collaborated for decades in the destruction and desecration of Orthodox Churches, the murder of priests, laity, and hierarchs-- including attempts to murder St. John of San Francisco-- and the violent confiscation of churches and monasteries that has continued right up to the present time.[/color]

http://tinyurl.com/muvf4j

Again what are the articles in the ukaze from Met. Tikhon which allow Russian bishops to rule over non-Russian diocese an ocean away? I recall some mention of
"neighbors" helping the struggling bishops who left mother Russia in order to live on until the time of return. But to come all the way to America to try and take over the Orthodox Church?

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  [color=#FF0000]Again, who was the titular head of the pre-revolutionary Orthodox Church in America?  This was not an autocephalous Church administration.  Who then constituted the legitimate administrative authority of the Russian Orthodox Church-- and its American archdiocese-- AFTER 1917?  Obviously, many Americans came to assert that the Stalinist MP was the true Church administration.  You apparently agree with this assessment, but your assertion begs the primary question, rather than answering it.  Is the MP a canonical, legitimate Orthodox Church administration?   The hierarchs of the ROCOR did not recognize the election of the various MP Patriarchs, including Patriarch Alexei II, and blessed ROCOR Metropolitan Philaret openly condemned the Metropolia for seeking autocephaly from the MP....[/color]

I think Anthony kept his title Metropolitan of Kiev and Galicia until he died. For those who claim to have kept the canons this seems like a very long stretch. But I'm sure there are those of creative mind who can justify the apparent disparities.

Some might say, "Alaska was the first Orthodox land in North America." True... and it still remains Orthodox in spite of the vicious politics that try and tear the church apart there. In all honesty ROCOR's attempt to establish a foothold in AK is not a story most in ROCOR wish to open to the general public.

You all have enough troubles of you own. No power will be grabbed by a marginal group or groups now bickering among themselves. How shall you resolve this psychologically? Many of you are inwardly possessed by Russia past, present, and future yet you live in a radically Protestant-minded individualistic society, the product of the English Enlightenment that is quickly becoming Marxist in regards to secular politics. This cannot be a recipe for personal inner stability.

The Church--what remains of the true Church-- is our Ark...Also, consider the plight of the remnant of the Church in the Moslem lands of the Middle East. Would you say that they were not of the true Church because of their vanishing numbers, and the fact that their properties had been confiscated by the Moslems? Identifying the true Church has never been an issue of simple demographics and/or popularity. If that were the case, we would have to conclude that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church, being the world's largest at present. Wouldn't we?

The church photo is one in the Euphrosyne archives. I'd wanted to use a picture from a set of 1917 WWI cards depicting allied leaders of the Great War. Tsar Nicholas II was one of the cards. I thought it ironic that the set would come out (printed in UK) the year the tsar was killed.

elias

[mtcarmel]

The details in the example of a single Japanese loyalist in resistance for29 years is not meant to be extended to far in explaining ROCOR current paranoia. Im not sure how much you know about the progress of the conflict the Pacific theatre towards the end of WWII but neither the Japanese soldiers nor the civilians they watched over believed their American foes to be "decent and just".

Neither am I clear on what your point might be in mentioning noble American foes but time and again as the Americans island-hopped closer to mainland Japan the more fierce was the resistance to the point that Japanese troops became suicidal in their resistance. There are also documentary films of Japanese civilians who took their children to the sea-side cliffs and jumped together 100s of feet to the rock-strewn ocean below simply because they'd become convinced that the American were cannibals. Of course, this was not official American policy. I am guessing here but the Russian secret police are probably not as fierce as you've made them to be. Certainly they are not Stalinistic.

Your claim that there was no legitimate authority over American post 1917 seems to be the basis for the Russian/Serbian?German synodal entry into America with no clear ukase under their belts to attempt a take-over of already the established church. Your bishops were Russian with Russian diocese. What was the justification for the attempted take-over of the metroplia?

elias

you wrote:

A poor analogy. The Japanese soldier was fighting against a decent and just foe. His nation had started the war (against the U.S.) by bombing Pearl Harbor. In contrast, those within the former ROCOR who have resisted the union with the Moscow Patriarchate are holding out against a "foe" that collaborated for decades in the destruction and desecration of Orthodox Churches, the murder of priests, laity, and hierarchs-- including attempts to murder St. John of San Francisco-- and the violent confiscation of churches and monasteries that has continued right up to the present time.
The hard-core ROCOR in resistance brings to mind the Japanese soldier who was so deeply entrenched in his cave on a jungle island that he was still fighting 29 years after the Japanese had surrendered. It would be tragic if you allowed yourselves to enter into a similar mindset.

http://tinyurl.com/muvf4j

Again what are the articles in the ukaze from Met. Tikhon which allow Russian bishops to rule over non-Russian diocese an ocean away? I recall some mention of"neighbors" helping the struggling bishops who left mother Russia in order to live on until the time of return. But to come all the way to America to try and take over the Orthodox Church?

Again, who was the titular head of the pre-revolutionary Orthodox Church in America? This was not an autocephalous Church administration. Who then constituted the legitimate administrative authority of the Russian Orthodox Church-- and its American archdiocese-- AFTER 1917? Obviously, many Americans came to assert that the Stalinist MP was the true Church administration. You apparently agree with this assessment, but your assertion begs the primary question, rather than answering it. Is the MP a canonical, legitimate Orthodox Church administration? The hierarchs of the ROCOR did not recognize the election of the various MP Patriarchs, including Patriarch Alexei II, and blessed ROCOR Metropolitan Philaret openly condemned the Metropolia for seeking autocephaly from the MP....

[Pravoslavnik]

Mt. Carmel,

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Frankly, I don't understand your response, but it may have to do with the phrasing of my questions.  The ROCOR hierarchs in the 1920s were an important PART of the true Russian Orthodox Church hierarchy--of which the Orthodox Church in America was a subset-- were they not?  What legitimate, canonical grounds would the hierarchs in America have had for rebelling against the canonical Russian hierarchs of the ROCOR Synod, and breaking with them to form an independent Orthodox Church administration?  None that I can discern.  This is what I have never understood about the OCA.  The Metropolia then tried to justify this earlier schismatic behavior by seeking "autocephalous" status in 1970 from the Moscow Patriarchate, whose hierarchs had never been recognized as canonically legitimate by the ROCOR Synod.  Hence, we return to the original question with which this transposed thread began: Is the MP (and hence OCA) a legitimate, canonical Orthodox Church administration?  You speak as if the "Metropolia" in North America had been autocephalous in 1917.

 Secondly, the point that I made about your Japanese WWII hold out is that he was holding out against a reasonably just, decent "foe."  Unlike this Japanese soldier, the many people in the ROCOR who did not go along with the take over of the ROCOR by the Moscow Patriarchate in May of 2007 are holding out against EVIL.  Which brings us to my first questions above, which you did not answer:  What do you make of church hierarchs (MP/ROCOR-Laurus)who would treat an elderly Metropolitan like the late Vitaly (Ustinov) so violently in his old age?  You've seen the photos.  Do they trouble you at all?

   Finally, what grounds do you have for asserting that the KGB/MP are not "fierce" or "Stalinistic?"  You, yourself, admitted that you have not read [i]The Sword and the Shield[/i] or the [i]Trojan Horse[/i] by K. Preobrazhensky.  Did you read about the murder of Alexander Litvinenko in England?  Was that "fierce" in your opinion?  You seem to be in a state of denial about the history and nature of the MP and the KGB.

[mtcarmel]

It seems each has the freedom to derive a different lesson from the case of the Japanese soldier who held out 29 yrs after the war was over.

I will try and address your points re: the Metropolia in America when I get a little more time.

Until then I am providing a link to a book who's content may be mostly perused online but costs a few $$$$$$ to purchase in actual book form.

The title of the book: Russian Messianism

The content of the book seeks address a driving force latent within the Russian mind and soul which compels it outwards into the world to bring Russian ideas and Russian-ness to an as yet unenlightened world. It may have been this driving force against which some in the Metropolia reacted in the two attempts made by the Metropolia to form a more perfect union with ROCOR in the mid-20th century. But I'm only guessing here.

http://www.google.com/books?id=rwdYD40W ... tcover&lr=

elias

---

Pravoslavnik wrote:

The ROCOR hierarchs in the 1920s were an important PART of the true Russian Orthodox Church hierarchy--of which the Orthodox Church in America was a subset-- were they not? What legitimate, canonical grounds would the hierarchs in America have had for rebelling against the canonical Russian hierarchs of the ROCOR Synod, and breaking with them to form an independent Orthodox Church administration? None that I can discern. This is what I have never understood about the OCA. The Metropolia then tried to justify this earlier schismatic behavior by seeking "autocephalous" status in 1970 from the Moscow Patriarchate, whose hierarchs had never been recognized as canonically legitimate by the ROCOR Synod. Hence, we return to the original question with which this transposed thread began: Is the MP (and hence OCA) a legitimate, canonical Orthodox Church administration? You speak as if the "Metropolia" in North America had been autocephalous in 1917.

[Pravoslavnik]

Mt. Carmel,

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  Would you do me the courtesy of answering one simple question related to this thread?  It seems trivial, but may have important ecclesiological implications.

  [i] What do you make of a church hierarchy/administration/staff that would physically abduct an elderly "retired" Metropolitan-- forcing him into a car against his will, and attempting to transport him to another country, even pursuing legal guardianship of him in a case that went to the New York Supreme Court?[/i]