Confession of Faith Against Ecumenism

[Cyprian]

If I may ask, who are all the signatories? Are these all new-calendarists that signed this, or are some of those names on the declaration genuine Orthodox?

If I may ask, are you still yet to be baptized into the Orthodox Christian faith or are you still teaching and judging others in the genuine Orthodox faith unbaptized ?

1) Where do you suggest those who desire entrance into the fold of the Church be baptized into the Orthodox Christian Faith? Please provide some names.
2) How (in this case) is asking a question about the identity of the signatories "teaching and judging others in the genuine Orthodox faith"? I simply desire to know who these people are, since I don't recognize most of the names.

[GOCPriestMark]

It is most likely that they believe that no one with go along with their movement if they make a call to return to the Orthodox ecclesiastical calendar. This is the problem with "fighting from within"; it is an intellectual game of saying "this is the Orthodox way", but not laying down your life for what is right. Therefore their hierarchy will ignore them because they know they will continue to commemorate and their laity will not follow them because it lacks conviction and rocks their boat.

This document is self-condemning. The first sentence in their "confession" is obviously not true just in the case of the ecclesiastical calendar; "1. We maintain, irremovably and without alteration, everything that the Synods and the Fathers have instituted." Oh? Then why are many of the signatories on the papal calendar and all of them commemorate bishops who are on the papal calendar?

Other than the hypocrisy, I like the statement. Where were these men 85 years ago when there were beatings to be had and when chalices were being overturned and stomped on just for standing up and being counted as a genuine Orthodox Christians and for remaining on the Orthodox calendar?

BTW, I think Cyprian's question was spot-on. And mmcxristidis' idea to use it as an opportunity to chastise Cyprian was wrong ,(and could have begun to take the topic off-subject ). As far as I can tell, these are all 'commemorator' Athonites (EP) or from the "State Church of Greece."

[mmcxristidis]

If I may ask, who are all the signatories? Are these all new-calendarists that signed this, or are some of those names on the declaration genuine Orthodox?

If I may ask, are you still yet to be baptized into the Orthodox Christian faith or are you still teaching and judging others in the genuine Orthodox faith unbaptized ?

1) Where do you suggest those who desire entrance into the fold of the Church be baptized into the Orthodox Christian Faith? Please provide some names.
2) How (in this case) is asking a question about the identity of the signatories "teaching and judging others in the genuine Orthodox faith"? I simply desire to know who these people are, since I don't recognize most of the names.

I have read many of your posts on this and other forums and I must admit I have learned a few things from them. I don't agree with some of your views on certain topics but I must admit your a very intelligent fellow, more than I could hope to be. Your very book smart and I'd probably have a difficult time debating with you.
I had become aware though, last time I checked at least. that after a few years posting and telling others what is or is'nt "genuine Orthodoxy" that you yourself were not even baptized into the Orthodox faith and as others have pointed out you have no right teaching the Orthodox faith to others in the faith ( I believe there is a canon to that effect, correct me if I'm wrong ).
Anyways, perhaps I had no right taking this off topic as the super-correct Orthodox Fr. Mark suggests, but you did imply some of the names on the declaration were not "genuine Orthodox".
I'm not really sure what your asking in "1) Where do you suggest those who desire entrance into the fold of the Church be baptized into the Orthodox Christian Faith? Please provide some names". Would'nt one who desires entrance into the fold want to be baptized ? What names do you want me to give?
As for" 2) How (in this case) is asking a question about the identity of the signatories "teaching and judging others in the genuine Orthodox faith"? I simply desire to know who these people are, since I don't recognize most of the names." It does seem to me at least in a round about way, that you seem to be judging negatively those on this declaration, call me silly if you wish.
I would like to know if in fact you are still un-baptized and if so why not, since you fancy yourself so Orthodox in your thinking ? Perhaps you are waiting to do it on your deathbed so as to die sinless ?

[joasia]

At some point, those in the New Calendar who believe that the ecumenical movement is a heresy, would have to face that day that their conscience cannot continue under their present hierarchy. Working within can be an excuse for some, but a necessity for others. The clergy are responsible for their flock and if they believe that their flock is in dangerous territory (spiritually-speaking), then they should move them to safer ground. But, this means that the priest will have to forego his Church (building) since it belongs to the EP. And what about the parishoners who are ignorant to the dangers? How many of us here have tried to explain ecumenism to fellow parishoners who really didn't think much about it? If these are caring clergy, then they will want to take ALL their flock with them. So staying behind, for those clergy who are genuinely truthful about opposing ecumenism, may be to have more time to reach those parishoners that are still stubborn in their ignorance. How do we know that they aren't praying for their flock with all their hearts? Their website certainly seems intensely traditional.

I will take more time to go through their articles and such. They obviously have a solid taditional Orthodox faith. But, I can imagine that if most of their flock are confused about the ecumenical issues or just don't care, then they can't just pick up and leave because they will not follow. Their position will just be filled by one that is purely ecumenist. And the flock, which are too busy with their family lives, will just accept what they are told.

My view is that there are two types of traditional clergy talkers in the EP: those who are afraid of leaving because of fear of the people's reaction (flock, other clergy, the Patriarch) and those who fear leaving because they will lose many of their flock who will want to stay behind. We cannot judge what works they are doing in their Parishes, for the love of truth.

Although, they commemorate the EP, some need to stay behind in order to gather the rest of the sheep when a storm is coming. If all the clergy left, the sheep would be scattered and confused and the wolves would gather around them and devour them. Those who have left ahead, should watch them carefully and prepare their place for when they arrive and should help guide them to the safe pasture.

Give them time to arrange their departure, but for the love of God, pray for them and help them when they hold out their hands for support. Enough with the condemning. Enough with the pride. The time is growing short and the end is approaching. We must gather all our flock together for the Great Shepard is coming.

[Kybihetz21]

The only reason I posted that article in the Traditionalist section was because of the Traditionalist essence of it, although I suspected that it came from clergy of the State Church of Greece. Those people, whoever they are, are just trying to make an effort, and should be supported and helped, not attacked. The moderators are of course free to move it anywhere, and even delete it, if necessary.

What really makes me wonder of the sincerity of the beliefs and Christian Love of the Traditionalists/Old Calendarists that answered this post (and many others), is what I describe as a generally nasty and unforgiving attitude to ANYONE that is not part of their group, not matter how little it is. All this “Ultra Orthodoxy” and “Super Correctness” only helps those that remain in “World Orthodoxy” jurisdictions to stay where they are. The fact that some people maintain AND preach that they are the only Orthodox left on Earth, and that their bishop back in Siberia or Cyprus or God knows where is the ONLY “True, Orthodox, Canonical, etc.” hierarch, makes me laugh at their nonsense. I only ask myself and the world these questions: For how long all these people are going to keep fighting against everyone else and spreading that hate that is so unchristian and unorthodox? Why we don’t see all these groups meeting in an amicable and humble way that will resolve in the union of all? If these people would really love Christ AND His Church, they would not be fighting for a stupid see and for empty titles, but would be trying to resolve all these troubles that have been created by men in their hunger for fame and glory. They would also be willing to help the faithful that is so in need of spiritual nourishment, instead of confusing them more and more whenever a hierarch or clergyman makes up an excuse and jumps from one jurisdiction to another at his whim in search for the perfect “Truth”.

If instead of doing this, people would be more realistic and had more love towards their brethren and see that, no matter where we are, we are all trying to SAVE our souls, maybe God would be merciful and allow our dream of seeing The Church united back as it was 100 years ago, and not torn into the hundreds of pieces as it is now.

[Joanna Higginbotham]

Cyprian asked for suggestions (names) of where to be baptized. Many people recommend their own jurisdictions and I'm no different. I suggest somewhere on the Royal Path. That would be the Synod in Resistance, the Old Calendar Bulgarians, the Old Calendar Romanians, or ROCOR-Agafangel.

I was baptized in World Orthodoxy (OCA) because it was the best of my options in my location. My priest was one of those traditional ones that Joasia mentions. I always knew I would leave the OCA for ROCOR when I had the chance, and that chance came 2 years later when I moved to another state. If the Royal Path did not exist, I would find some super-correct jurisdiction. I would not be completely happy, but I would be utterly miserable and depressed in World Orthodoxy.

[Catherine5]

I think Kyb. 21's comment earlier up is a fair critique.
{ironically my post was composed before the previous one posted}
It's most paradoxical that those who tout an elastically moderate "royal path"- (who made that corny name up anyway?!) - are the first to sink fangs into those TOC people who stand up more steadfastly against the MP's behavior. In short they intolerantly proclaim, "those who are not tolerant like us will be sent straight to ecclesiastical hell"- !!!
Reminds one of a Jewish type of exclusivism:
"Nobody but US! We are the chosen Orthodox! We must trample everybody else beyond the narrow borders of our small group; at the least exclude them from membership in our sacrosanct Club!
"Only then will we feel totally secure, because frankly we are not as secure as our spokespeople would like you all to believe...."

This Kyb.21 comment is clearly well-intended. I hope it will cause the offenders to see themselves objectively. Very understandably, it's so difficult to admit errors and lapses of charity toward other sincere souls.
But rather than gnash their teeth at a constructive criticism, why not work on mending those unappealing ways while there's time?

It's just to their benefit.
Why? Because candidates for joining their groups of high spiritual wisdom who otherwise sympathize with the TOC agenda, are just the clear-eyed ones who may detect this manifest superiority complex and be turned off.
Instead, mentally or emotionally and spiritually off-balance fringe types will be attracted, which will result in further dimming the light of that group. Not to mention giving it a rather poor reputation.

Let's remember the example given by the Saintly Metr Philaret.
He didn't proclaim "Let's despise those groups with whom we don't agree; let's wage a vitriolic war of pointing out the failures of all the rest".
He spoke the Rocor Policy toward other religious groups with polite understatement: "We don't agree with their doctrines. Here is what we believe. They believe differently".
Why not take a leaf out of his book? After all, how many other TOC forebears are incorrupt, showing God's assumed endoresement of their spiritual approach ?
If there IS a Royal Path, he is the one best exemplifying it. Never wishy-washy like some, always clear and defined, he was the essence of heart-filled caring for others, not attacking them for minior points the way that those who are self-absorbed are prone to.