Metropolitan Kallistos Ware Preaches Evolution Heresy

[Cyprian]

Pravoslavnik wrote:

I do hope, and believe, that we all share a common love for Christ and the Holy Church.

As do I. However, since Fr. Michael Azkoul is on record recanting his erroneous views on Evolution and the origin of man, and yet you cite him as an Orthodox authority, are you holding to the belief that Orthodox Christians are free to believe however they choose when it comes to Evolution and the origin of man?

In other words, is it your belief that St. Nectarios of Aegina, St. Adronik of Perm, Fr. Seraphim Rose, etc. could categorically reject Evolutionary theory and be fully Orthodox, while others like yourself can subscribe to these nonsensical theories and be fully Orthodox as well?

Sacred Scripture declares:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men," and... "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,"

Are you saying that Christians are not required to uphold the clear teaching that death entered the world subsequent to the sin of Adam? That we are free to believe that God was responsible for the death of myriads of creatures over the span of millions or billions of years prior to the creation of Adam?

Do you not assert that animals died for millions or billions of years prior to the creation of Adam? Could you please just give us a simple yes or no to this very basic question?

[joasia]

Pravo,

Similarly, on this thread, Joasia repeatedly insisted that I had not attempted to answer her question regarding evolutionary theory and the creation of the "soul." Yet, when I re-posted my original response of February 20th, she did not apologize for her error.

Well, at least now you are specifying the date. That helps the search considering that there are so many exchanges. Perhaps copy/pasting your response after your comment will help move the conversation along with more clarity.

You wrote:

Please read my above response to your question about the soul.

I took the immediate “above” response which you wrote that was on that present page. That was my misunderstanding.

One possible interpretation is that Homo Sapiens evolved from hominids--as seems evident from the scientific data-- and that Adam was the first Homo Sapien given an immortal soul-- denoted by the specific verb.

So who gave birth to Adam? Why just start with Adam, if evolution is the cause of the mother who gave birth to Adam? Why do all the holy fathers explain that Adam is the First created man? ever. And what is the explanation about how God created Eve related to evolution? If you want to be specific about words used, then the word “create” denotes making something out of nothing. A birth. The evolution theory explains transformations from a non-species to a human. This attempt to combine evolution and creation is like oil and water. It just can’t mix.

Yet, when I re-posted my original response of February 20th, she did not apologize for her error.

The reason I didn’t respond to your post is that this is the first time I have looked in on the thread since Saturday. Considering it is Clean week, I wanted to remove myself from posting here, like many do, for Great Lent. My curiousity got the better of me. But, at least God gave me the strength to make it through the first most crucial three days.

Has anyone else at the St. Euphrosynos Cafe noticed that when some people here make false, insulting comments, they never apologize?

Yes. I believe that I had posted about that issue with you, on many occassions. Or have you forgotten? Why do you always ignore your own reactions and just blame others? Anyway, we all need to work on apologizes, don’t you agree? Or more so, on restraining ourselves from saying something that would require an apology. So, if you need an apology, from me, about not referencing the particular post you were mentioning...then I ask for your forgiveness. As an Orthodox Christian, I need to be mindful of what this past Sunday teaches and to continue on that path throughout the Great Lent.

Cyprian wrote:

One trait that is traditionally seen with heretics is that when asked to provide specific answers to direct questions, they engage in a plethora of diversionary tactics, never clearly and directly answering the questions put to them.

I agree with that and take it one step further. They may come up with an explanation, but it only creates more questions. The logic is missing. With Orthodox Christian Evolutionist, in particular, because they are familiar with the Orthodox saints’ writings, as opposed to Protestants...they seem to completely forget what the holy saints wrote about Adam. The saints’ explanations always refer to Adam as the first created man. Created. Not transformed or evolved. Simply...if God evolved man, then that is how God would teach us. And adding to that the plethora of hymns that express God’s teachings... there is mention of Adam, but never any question that he is not the first created man. Created. By supporting the evolution lie, they deny God as the Almighty. They base their limited knowledge as the law of God’s actions, like gravity. The laws of nature are designed for our benefit, not God’s. God can defy the very nature He created because He is supranatural. Therefore, He can create Adam in an instant. And the saints didn’t write about this subject much because their main concern was our salvation. Man has become so spiritually dysfunctional that they have distorted the truth and question the teachings of the prophets and holy fathers. Man has conformed God to their level and therefore their explanation of God's actions are imperfect. But, it should be the other way around. Man should conform themselves to God and then they will gain perfection, in Him.

Well, gotta go. If I don't answer, it's because I'm not here.

Joanna

[Pravoslavnik]

Joanna,

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   It is not a question of [i]whether[/i] God created Adam--on that I am sure that all Orthodox Christians can agree-- but[i] how[/i].  There are two different accounts of this creative historical process in [i]Genesis[/i], which is, of course, not a [i]scientific [/i]account of the ingenious evolutionary [i]mechanism[/i] of God's creation.  Why do the [i]Genesis[/i] accounts of creation use such a very different Hebrew verb for "creation" in the case of the Adamah who became a living "soul?"  Was the creation of this soul-endowed Adam rather unique, special-- different in some way from the previous "creative" events of cosmogenesis?  (The only other use of this verb for creation in [i]Genesis[/i] refers to the Big Bang itself, when God brought the universe into existence ex nihilo.)

    The earth is about 3.5 billion years old, when time is measured from the perspective of planet earth, and the physical universe is about 15 billion years old.  There is a remarkable convergence of scientific data-- e.g., strontium and other isotope dating-- supporting this scientific fact.  Life has existed--and perished- on the earth for hundreds of millions of years in earth-time prior to the appearance of the first hominids and, later, of homo sapiens.   Do you sincerely believe that the great dinosaurs of the Jurassic Era of earth history-- brontosaurii, etc.-- were [i]still alive[/i] upon the earth during and after the first appearance of homo sapiens (Adam) on the earth?  Please clarify.

    As for Cyprian's comment that heretics never answer specific questions, I very specifically answered Cyprian's questions, with quotations from St. Augustine and a reference to Fr. Michael Azkoul's text.  On the other hand, neither you nor Cyprian have ever answered MY specific question:  [i]What is the [i]name[/i] of the Orthodox Christian heresy which condemns the biological theory of evolution[/i]?  Is it Docetism, Arianism, Chiliasm,etc?  Please specify.  If any Orthodox Christian would presume to call another a heretic, even a hierarch such as Bishop Kallistos Ware (who published the Lenten Triodion that I have been reading lately), I think they owe us all the courtesy of at least [i]naming[/i] the said heresy.

[Cyprian]

On the other hand, neither you nor Cyprian have ever answered MY specific question: What is the name of the Orthodox Christian heresy which condemns the biological theory of evolution? Is it Docetism, Arianism, Chiliasm,etc? Please specify.

As I said before, the expression "Orthodox Christian heresy" is oxymoronic. Nevertheless, since you seek a name for this heresy, I would submit the name Darwinism.

St. Barsanuphius of Optina:

“The English philosopher Darwin created an entire system according to which life is a struggle for existence, a struggle of the strong against the weak, where those that are conquered are doomed to destruction.... This is already the beginning of a bestial philosophy, and those who come to believe in it wouldn’t think twice about killing a man, assaulting a woman, or robbing their closest friend—and they would do all this calmly, with a full recognition of their right to commit these crimes.”

[joasia]

Pravo,

What it comes down to, is that a Christian should accept the Holy Bible as the Holy Word of God. Time frames are mentioned(in the Holy Bible) and that, in it’s simplicity, should be revered as absolute truth, because that information that we read in the Old Testament and which is supported in the New Testament, even by Jesus Christ, cannot be laced with falsehood. God is not false, but Truth. When man begins to intellectualize God’s Holy Mysteries of life by conforming God’s actions to man’s limited and depraved understanding of these Mysteries, it becomes blasphemy. And when man questions what God has revealed through the prophets, the Apostles and Jesus Christ Himself, then it's as if man is calling God a liar.

[Pravoslavnik]

Cyprian and joasia,

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  What St. Barsanuphius of Optina is properly describing in the above quotation sounds like [i]Social Darwinism[/i]-- a Godless perversion of moral philosophy that attempted to extrapolate the biological mechanism of evolution theory to the realm of ethics.  I cannot imagine any Orthodox Christian accepting [i]Social Darwinism[/i] as an ethical or political philosophy, nor should any Orthodox Christian simply assume--like the modern atheists do-- that Darwinian evolutionary theory is necessarily atheistic.    As I mentioned earlier, we would not describe Newton's theories of motion and gravity as "atheistic," would we?  They simply describe some of the scientific and mathematical properties of God's creation.  As for calling this so-called "heresy" "Darwinism," who among the Holy Fathers ever defined an Orthodox "heresy of Darwinism?"

  I certainly DO accept the truth of the Holy scriptures, and their proper interpretation by the Holy Fathers. Recall, however, that St. Augustine admonished Christians to refrain from making assertions about matters of [i]science [/i]in relation to Holy Writ, which might prove to be incorrect.  I have long believed that the depth and wisdom of the scriptures is simply astonishing, but that this remarkable depth has been concealed from most modern intellectuals by the popular "Young Earth" misinterpretations of the time frame of [i]Genesis[/i] by  Fundamentalist Protestants, and some modern Orthodox authors.    Perhaps this is the will of God.  Thus, the wise will appear foolish on the Dread Day of Judgment, and many of the "foolish" will appear wise by virtue of trusting the Holy Fathers.

[Pravoslavnik]

Also, Fathers, brothers, and sisters in Our Lord Jesus Christ, please forgive me, a sinner, if I have offended you or spoken in error, through pride or vanity, regarding modern science and the teachings of the Fathers and the Church. What I have written is based upon my deepest respect, love and gratitude for the revelations of Holy scripture and the Orthodox Church. I do not wish to see these Holy things degraded or cast before swine in our day and age.