Fr Spyridon Schnieder Finds a Home... Again.

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Incognito1583
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Posts: 273
Joined: Sat 5 July 2008 5:34 pm

Post by Incognito1583 »

nicholas candela wrote:

JOASIA: The arguement between Joe and Nicholas is human reaction.

NICHOLAS; I don't feel I'm arguing with Joe. And even if I WERE, if a good argument would cause Incognito to go to the Pope, how am I in any way responsible for that? Years ago I wrote two essays against Papism, proving beyond doubt why the Papcy is not true, was never true, and will never be true.

Incognito: beware! You might wind up with Pope John Paul II, kissing the Koran in hell.

Nicholas Candela

No, I would never kiss that book. I am against Rome, but anyone who has even a slight knowledge of Church history, cannot deny that Rome held a divine primacy over all churches for the first 900 years. If you deny this, I would be happy to debate you on it.

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Kosmas
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What kind of Primacy Incognito!

Post by Kosmas »

I am sorry you still are intertwined with the Roman Catholic thinking of Primacy over ALL CHURCHES. As you have stated: "that Rome held a divine primacy over all churches for the first 900 years."

The Bishop of any church only has ecclesial authority over HIS OWN church or jurisdiction not over other churches / jurisdictions.
Nowhere will you find that the Bishop of Rome had legitimate authority over any other jurisdiction other than his own.

Read Canon VI of the Ecumenical Council of Nice you will find that the Metropolitans of Alexandria, Antioch, and Rome had EQUAL authority over their OWN churches.

First Oecumenical Synod of Nicaea c.325 AD
Canon VI

Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis prevail, that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also. Likewise in Antioch and the other provinces, let the Churches retain their privileges. And this is to be universally understood, that if any one be made bishop without the consent of the Metropolitan, the great Synod has declared that such a man ought not to be a bishop. If, however, two or three bishops shall from natural love of contradiction, oppose the common suffrage of the rest, it being reasonable and in accordance with the ecclesiastical law, then let the choice of the majority prevail.

OK. So here is the understanding that you most desperately need. Rome up until the 9th Century WAS the par excellence of churches. Rome was a relatively safe haven from conspiracies, intrigues, and heresies that cropped up in the more affluent Eastern Empire. However, during the late 8th century the Bishops of Rome made a bargain with the devil and who they are inslaved TO THIS DAY!

I don't know the definitive cut-off date (756AD -1054AD) from the Lord Jesus Christ and His Church but know this:
Every Roman Catholic baptism, every ordination, and every eucharistic celebration has NO salvific value whatsoever. What is truly remarkable is that the people who most condemn Rome as “graceless” are no lesser than the recognized SAINTS of the Orthodox Church.

Take Saint Photios the Great, Saint Mark of Ephesus, or more recently Saint Nektarios of Pentapolis, and Saint Justin Popovic. Every one of them has condemned Papism in word and deed.

Yet, Incognito you find that Rome, the Pope has some kind of redeeming value as the head of a wealthy and powerful institution. Indeed he is but that institution has NOTHING to do with the Church of Jesus Christ. In fact he and his organization is a sworn enemy of all true Christians.

This Pope and any other future Pope is the forerunner to Antichrist and Orthodox Christians should have nothing to do with him. That is how holy Saints see the Pope it is time you do the same.

P.S. Try not to focus so much on the imperfections that Orthodoxia has but instead look to your own sinful nature as I look to mine. God in His own way will take care of us if we put our trust in Him.
Peace.

Incognito1583
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Posts: 273
Joined: Sat 5 July 2008 5:34 pm

Re: What kind of Primacy Incognito!

Post by Incognito1583 »

Kosmas wrote:

I am sorry you still are intertwined with the Roman Catholic thinking of Primacy over ALL CHURCHES. As you have stated: "that Rome held a divine primacy over all churches for the first 900 years."

Yes. And this was the understanding of the ancient Fathers. Even Saint Athanasius appealed to the pope when he was persecuted by Arians. I am not defending Rome as it is today. I am defending the ancient primacy when Rome was Orthodox.

Kosmas wrote:

The Bishop of any church only has ecclesial authority over HIS OWN church or jurisdiction not over other churches / jurisdictions.
Nowhere will you find that the Bishop of Rome had legitimate authority over any other jurisdiction other than his own.

Don't take my word for it. Listen to our Father among the saints, Maximos the Confessor:

Saint Maximus stated:

"....the Apostolic See, which from God the incarnate Word Himself as well as all the holy Councils, according to the sacred canons and definitions, has received and possesses supreme power in all things and for all things, over all the holy churches of God throughout the world, as well as power and authority of binding and loosing. For with this church, the Word, who commands the powers of heaven, binds and looses in heaven...."[ PG 91: 144].

Do you agree with Saint Maximus?

Pope [Saint] Gregory the Great stated:

"As to what they say of the Church of Constantinople, who doubts that it is subject to the Apostolic See"?

Kosmas wrote:

Read Canon VI of the Ecumenical Council of Nice you will find that the Metropolitans of Alexandria, Antioch, and Rome had EQUAL authority over their OWN churches.

Yes, but the popes had authority over all churches. That is why the easterners often appealed to the popes when they were in trouble.

Kosmas wrote:

Take Saint Photios the Great, Saint Mark of Ephesus, or more recently Saint Nektarios of Pentapolis, and Saint Justin Popovic. Every one of them has condemned Papism in word and deed.

Saint Photius died in communion with Rome. The others, Rome would consider schismatic with no authority.

I wonder if you've ever read the acts of the Lateran Council and Saint Theodore on this. I doubt it.

I've only repeated the Fathers. If I get banned for being a "crypto-papist" [which I'm not], then they are also banning the Fathers. I am in good company.

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