Fr Spyridon Schnieder Finds a Home... Again.

[Incognito1583]

Yes, traditionalism tends to have an effect on people.

[joasia]

Incog,

I'm a traditionalist too. Everybody here, who knows me, knows that. I was referring to both of your pretentious and irritating attitudes. Your judgemental and decisive interpretations of the situations.

You both have the same character. You both don't understand the depth of the spiritual struggle.

All you want to do is blame. Well Christ teaches to blame ourselves first.

[Incognito1583]

Incog,
You both don't understand the depth of the spiritual struggle.

Excuse me? You don't know how much I have suffered for Christ and the traditional cause. You don't know what I have given up and what I go through on a daily basis.

Well Christ teaches to blame ourselves first.

Then why don't you?

[joasia]

Well Christ teaches to blame ourselves first.

Then why don't you?

Exactly my point. I see you still don't get it.

[Incognito1583]

My point was that you need to practice what you preach.

[nicholas candela]

NICHOLAS: I posted no fiction. I've never posted anything fictitious, so why you make it sound as if I always do I'll leave you to ponder.

JOE: Because you mix fact with fiction as I have repeatedly pointed out above.

JOE: I don't have to ponder. That's what quotes are for.

NICHOLAS: "...but I'm puzzled why you would cite (Fr Spyridon's) peregrinations as if the ideal were to remain in the church one is born into."

JOE: Since I explained my thoughts on his motives, which was not the above, the above quote is deceptive.

NICHOLAS: No: it's illustrative.

JOE: No, it's deceptive. The ideal IS to remain in the Church one is born into if it remains Orthodox.

NICHOLAS: This is an ahistorical notion. It obtains ONLY IF one was born into a Katakomb church or the true GOC.

JOE: However, Fr Spyridon had no such reasoning for his departures.

NICHOLAS: I don't think I could care less about Fr Spyridon's motives for leaving jurisdictions. I merely pointed out that you've done the same. Did you not leave ROAC? Is she no longer Orthodox?

NICHOLAS: SInce HOCNA is not the Church, you were not baptized.

JOE: I don't know if I would be so quick to judge all of HOCNA as unbaptized. The Church is not one jurisdiction in these last days.

NICHOLAS: St John Maximovich said there are no jurisdictions: there is only the Orthodox Church. HOCNA is a Sodomite schism from ROCOR, and you know it. It has no organic connection to the GOC, teaches false doctrines, and is run by a pseudo Elder whose sins are still bearing poison fruit.

NICHOLAS: "...then with some Sarum-rite, now with the Milan Synod (though these last two might be one)?"

JOE: I was with a "rite", then a "Church"?

NICHOLS: Churches have rites.

NICHOLAS: Why not? Many local churches use more than one rite.

JOE: Of course. But you were trying to show all my "switches", and were implying I made more than I did.

NICHOLAS: No I was not: I simply made an error. SInce you impute bad motives to me when there are none, I can assume you're wrong about Fr Spyridon too.

JOE: No, Nicholas, you are trying to imply I was more places than I was.

NICHOLAS: No I was not.

JOE: I don't believe you.

NICHOLAS: What can I do?

NICHOLAS: "Can I take this to mean you too believe heretics are sick members of the Church with valid mysteries until a council the Kyprianites accept judges otherwise?"-

JOE: Again, fiction.

JOE: Chrysostomos was made a Bishop well before Metr Cyprian's position paper became the "official doctrine" of the "Synod in Resistance" which we had no part of, but as Bishop of Oreoi in January of 1986.

NICHOLAS: He openly formed his pseudo synod in 1984, to defuse the 1983 ROCOR anathema against ecumenism and ecumenists. He announced his ecclesiology publicly, well before his idiotic position paper.

JOE: He did not become the "Bishop of Etna" until 1988.

NICHOLAS: And he is horrendous. Even Patrick Barnes left him.

JOE: The Milan Synod has never approved of Cyprian's independent ecclesiology and to the contrary condemns his actions.

NICHOLAS: Fr Elia---who, last I cared, was a member of your Milan synod---posted a photo on Paradosis which showed Chrysostomos of Etna being consecrated a bishop, M Cyprian looking on. If the Milan synod rejects Kyprianism, they have a funny way of showing it.

JOE: I don't deny we made him a Bishop. I deny Cyprianism because we have had nothing to do with its creation. Our Synod advises the faithful to stay away from Cyprian of Fili, because of the two depositions against him.

NICHOLAS: There is such a thing as an uncanonical deposition. For instance, no one in ROAC believes that M Valentin was canonically deposed from ROCOR, so they just ignore ROCOR's deposition of him. Those who follow M Kyrikos do not accept Abp Nicholas' deposition of him. My point is what's wrong with M Kyprian is worse than his being twice deposed (some say thrice deposed...whatever): what's wrong with him is that his ecclesiology is anti Orthodox: it lulls heretics into a false sense that they are members of the Church, and gives them absolutely no reason to repent of their heresies, since they are, according to Kyrian, already in the Church. No Holy Father has ever taught that heretics are sick members of the Church. Arianism did not become an anti Church teaching ONLY WHEN it was condemned at I Nicaea. Christ was not a creature until the Church in 325 declared Him not to be a creature: heretics are not members of the Church until M Kyprian decides they aren't.

JOE, quoting NICHOLAS: "I was daring to question your citing his peregrinations as if they were per se a sign of his bad character, when you have your own sojournings." - But I never said anything of the sort!

NICHOLAS: So you were CONGRATULATING HIM on all his wanderings?

JOE: No. I was stating the motive, where they went from a possibly justifiable series of moves to canonical crimes, leaving Orthodox Bishops because they don't do what you want.

NICHOLAS: And you really believe you have not done the same?
What was your canonical reason for leaving ROAC?

NICHOLAS: "Not wanting or needing your respect, still I ask, exactly what are you saying "my position" is?"

JOE: Your position is that Spyridon may have been justified in his move (which I don't believe for reasons I stated and you ignored) and furthermore what was unjustified in his move (World Orthodoxy) was caused by his sudden closeness to "Cyprianism". Both are a load of garbage, in my book, and I am not afraid to tell you that.

NICHOLAS: Your "courage" is duly noted. What I said was that if he'd spent any time in ROCOR, he was already psychologically prepared to join the MP.

JOE: My 'courage'? This is rich.

NICHOLAS: Well, you said you were not afraid to tell me that.

JOE: And you are wrong.

NICHOLAS: It happens, but not in this case.

JOE: Many members of ROCOR have since left for other Churches, but you pretend they don't exist, as though because they didn't join your Synod they all went to the MP.

NICHOLS: Ridiculous: like you, I don't cheer-lead for any synod. Plus, that they left for other churches does NOT mean their bishops by declaring in 1994 their ecclesiology to be Kyprianite were not preparing them to accept the union with ROCOR on the basis that even if it is heretical, it is still the Church. In ROAC's latest encyclical M Valentin says that he read an interview with M Lavr just before his repose in which Lavr said that the union with ROCOR had been in the works since 1980.

NICHOLAS: "I was merely pointing out that you too have jumped, and your current synod gave America a bishop whose ecclesiology is heretical. This is not an opinion, it's an indisputable fact."

JOE: Without getting into the nuances of Cyprianite ecclesiology,

NICHOLAS: It's isn't as refined as you're making it out to be. Kyprian taught that heretics are sick memers of the Church and therefore their mysteries are valid. This is either true or it isn't. He also taught that none of the synodal condemnations of ecumenism are binding. This is either true or it isn't.

JOE: Neither is true.

NICHOLAS: Now YOU are either lying or you are misinformed. Kyprian's ECCLESIOLOGICAL POSITION PAPER does in fact say that ecumenists are sick members of the Church with valid mysteries. What are YOU saying Kyprian teaches? In 1998 Kyprian wrote a letter explaining why ROCOR's 1983 anathema against ecumenists could not be binding.

JOE: And it is nuanced, as Moss has pointed out: the Romanian Cyprianites Chrismate New Calendarists.

NICHOLAS: Moss has come to see that Kyprianism is an ecclesiological aberration. He denounces it every chance he gets. And if, as you say, some Kyprianites chrismate new calendarists, some others in fact commune them. This is your idea of "nuanced"? I call it doubleminded. Their ecclesiological position cannot be lived, because it is FALSE.

JOE: "....These are not two jurisdictions, and you know that."

NICHOLAS: "No, I did not; now I do. Why imply I am a liar?"

JOE: Because it's difficult to confuse a rite with a jurisdiction;

NICHOLAS: You know of no local churches that use more than one rite? Hard as it it for you to believe, I do not lie.

JOE:Which True Orthodox Churches use more than one rite (or even have to (besides the Kirykites, which seem to have a "one-Bishop per continent" idea going)?

NICHOLAS: The one to which the priest who wrote THE THIRD ROME belongs to, for one. I forget his name, Matthew Something.

JOE: With the exception of our Synod, most TOC's are TOC's for homogenous "Orthodox countries".

NICHOLAS: There is no Patristic or canoncial basis for there being more than one TOC (more properly GOC).

[
JOE: "Milan did in fact elevate Chrysostom of Etna. And Auxentios raised Bishops of Milan. This isn't relevant..."

JOE: I am a little tired of you pointing out the failings of other Synods

NICHOLAS: I'm glad to hear that you believe the Milan synod's consecration of Chrysostom of Etna was a failing. And if you don't think you have expended years in "pointing out the failings of other synods" read your posts on Paradosis.

JOE: I think I've gotten better and realize that some things are not worth fighting over. And I don't post on Paradosis anymore.

NICHOLAS: Neither do I. I was kicked off, for forgetting to address apostates by their titles.

Code: Select all

JOE:  "...I am not terribly concerned with where you think the Church is or isn't."  

NICHOLAS: I never asked you to be.

JOE: "This world is too full of people full of themselves..."

NICHOLAS:: At least you excel at projection. I am full of myself because I asked you to look at your own wanderings and where you've wound up? Do we dare not approach Joe Suaiden with an observation, except on our knees? Are you the Oz of Orthodoxy?

JOE: That's the other reason I can't stand talking to you.

NICHOLAS: Because I reveal your doublemindedness.

JOE: No, because you sound like a jackass.

NICHOLAS: And speaking like that, you DON'T?

JOE: You spent perfectly good minutes...

NICHOLAS: Less than a second.

JOE: You are an incredibly fast typist; no, you are a computer?

JOE: thinking up that ridiculous statement, with no basis in reality.

NICHOLAS: The reality is the way you come off. You fancy yourself a maven of Orthodoxy, and what you can't stand is to be questioned about anything you have decreed.

JOE: maven? That's new.

NICHOLAS: It's Yiddish for big-shot teacher.

JOE: I don't mind questioning. I mind attacks and can defend myself.

NICHOLAS: You're wasting energy, since I was not attacking you, and you're not that good at defending yourself, anyway: calling someone a jackass is a good defense?

JOE: Perhaps that's why you don't state who you are part of (or if you have, I've missed it).

NICHOLAS: It's none of your business. Not everyone in Orthodoxy walks past your cross hairs.

JOE: Right. Come off the high horse and be a man. If you can say why WE ALL are not the Church (except those who know your "secret jurisdiction") then you can have the decency to say who you are under.

NICHOLAS: Right, I must be unmanly because I agree with M Valentin that true Katakombniks do not want anyone to know to whom they belong.

JOE: Last I remembered, you defended Gregory of Colorado well after everyone else,

NICHOLAS: Then you conveniently remember incorrectly: I lost many so-called friends because of my exposes of the Sketeniks on Paradosis. I'm happy to report that they have now all left Gregory.

JOE: Well good to hear. You didn't read what I said then. You defended Gregory of Colorado well after everyone else; that is, when he was finally removed from ROAC.

NICHOLAS: That is not true. I was done with Gregory long before he got thrown out of ROAC. Ask him, Brother John, Fr John Claypool, Jerjis, the lot of them (all of whom left Gregory). They came to hate me because I kept posting against their Elder. They didn't care that I had a friend at the Skete, Basil McLeroy, who kept giving me the lowdown on what was really going on there. I did everything I could could help people out of that place.

NICHOLAS: And to think I broke with Dr. Jerjis Alajaji because he called you "vermin."

JOE:I'm sorry to hear you broke with anyone because of me.

NICHOLAS: I didn't like to hear that Hitler word ---vermin---applied to a human being. Then Jerjis poured his boling oil on me, because he said he knew stuff about you that would make me concur with him. I told him he was wrong (oh I'm sure he had dirt on you (the SKeteniks, following Panteleimon, loved dirt), I just didn't believe that would make me think it's call right to call you "vermin"), and I didn't hear from him for a few years, until recently when he asked me to vote for Ron Paul. I quoted to him St John Chrysostomos: "The affairs of the Empire mean as much to me as the affairs of living do to the dead."

JOE: I'd say I'm touched, but I am not, because you seem to imply you now agree with him.

NICHOLAS: Not at all.

JOE: Fr Spyridon is not the ROCOR (nor do I buy your statement.)

NICHOLAS: Nevertheless my statement is true: ROCOR's 1994 declaration of her ecclesiology as Kyprianite helped to solder the union with the MP, for, after all, if the MP are Sergianist-ecumenist heretics, so WHAT? They are merely sick members of the Church, and since they are the Church, then we, the healthy members, may unite with her and help to heal her.

JOE: No disagreement

NICHOLAS: I'm not sure if you mean you do not disagree with my assessment of the meaning of ROCOR's 1994 declaration of her Kypriainite ecclesiology or if you are saying you agree that the MP is in fact a sick member of the Church, and ROCOR"s "spiritual health" (what a joke) will help to cleanse the MP.

JOE:We've had on-and-off hostile email sessions over the past 5 years.

NICHOLAS: I've never felt hostile toward you, nor have I ever received anything hostile from you, In fact, you congratulated me on an article I wrote agaisnt the OCA (You wrote: "Dang! Good post.") But I see that these days you'd consider that article to be "pointing out the failings of other synods."

The Lord bless you.

Nicholas Candela

JOE: No, I wouldn't. But you are treating the false and the true as equally false without telling where you believe the truth is. I believe this is unconscionable and wrong.

NIHCOLAS: It's conscionable, trust me. Plus I have not called anything true FALSE.

Nicholas Candela

[nicholas candela]

JOASIA: The arguement between Joe and Nicholas is human reaction.

NICHOLAS; I don't feel I'm arguing with Joe. And even if I WERE, if a good argument would cause Incognito to go to the Pope, how am I in any way responsible for that? Years ago I wrote two essays against Papism, proving beyond doubt why the Papcy is not true, was never true, and will never be true.

Incognito: beware! You might wind up with Pope John Paul II, kissing the Koran in hell.

Nicholas Candela