Fr Spyridon Schnieder Finds a Home... Again.

[Suaidan]

NICHOLAS: I posted no fiction. I've never posted anything fictitious, so why you make it sound as if I always do I'll leave you to ponder.

Because you mix fact with fiction as I have repeatedly pointed out above.

JOE: I don't have to ponder. That's what quotes are for.

NICHOLAS: "...but I'm puzzled why you would cite (Fr Spyridon's) peregrinations as if the ideal were to remain in the church one is born into."

JOE: Since I explained my thoughts on his motives, which was not the above, the above quote is deceptive.

NICHOLAS: No: it's illustrative.

No, it's deceptive. The ideal IS to remain in the Church one is born into if it remains Orthodox. However, Fr Spyridon had no such reasoning for his departures.

NICHOLAS: " Were YOU not a Papist, then with World Orthodoxy...?"

JOE: Another error.

NICHOLAS: There was no first error. And you were born a Papist.

There was a second error, however; I was not with world Orthodoxy.

JOE: I was baptized in HOCNA.

NICHOLAS: SInce HOCNA is not the Church, you were not baptized.

I don't know if I would be so quick to judge all of HOCNA as unbaptized. The Church is not one jurisdiction in these last days.

NICHOLAS: "...then with some Sarum-rite, now with the Milan Synod (though these last two might be one)?"

JOE:This can only be described as deceptive.

NICHOLAS: Only by a paranoiac.

Thanks for sharing.

JOE: I was with a "rite", then a "Church"?

NICHOLAS: Why not? Many local churches use more than one rite.

Of course. But you were trying to show all my "switches", and were implying I made more than I did.

JOE: No, Nicholas, you are trying to imply I was more places than I was.

NICHOLAS: No I was not.

I don't believe you. Reread your first post to me.

NICHOLS: "Can I take this to mean you too believe heretics are sick members of the Church with valid mysteries until a council the Kyprianites accept judges otherwise?"-

JOE: Again, fiction.

NICHOLAS: You use the word "again" as if you were building an unanswerable case against me. Since it is your synod who made a Kyprianite bishop for America, the question is valid.

Chrysostomos was made a Bishop well before Metr Cyprian's position paper became the "official doctrine" of the "Synod in Resistance" which we had no part of, but as Bishop of Oreoi in January of 1986. He did not become the "Bishop of Etna" until 1988.

JOE: The Milan Synod has never approved of Cyprian's independent ecclesiology and to the contrary condemns his actions.

NICHOLAS: Fr Elia---who, last I cared, was a member of your Milan synod---posted a photo on Paradosis which showed Chrysostomos of Etna being consecrated a bishop, M Cyprian looking on. If the Milan synod rejects Kyprianism, they have a funny way of showing it.

I don't deny we made him a Bishop. I deny Cyprianism because we have had nothing to do with its creation. Our Synod advises the faithful to stay away from Cyprian of Fili, because of the two depositions against him.

JOE: I sense you know that, though I can't prove it.

NICHOLAS: Your synod's actions have taught me to know just the opposite.

Whatver.

JOE: Regardless, stated as a matter of fact, it is a matter of fiction.

NICHOLAS: Only in your mind.

NICHOLAS: "I was daring to question your citing his peregrinations as if they were per se a sign of his bad character, when you have your own sojournings." - But I never said anything of the sort!

NICHOLAS: So you were CONGRATULATING HIM on all his wanderings?

No. I was stating the motive, where they went from a possibly justifiable series of moves to canonical crimes, leaving Orthodox Bishops because they don't do what you want.

NICHOLAS: "So all your choices have been from absolutely pure motives, and all his from absolutely bad? I'm just asking. Is one allowed to ask you a question without incurring your hauteur?"

JOE: Another fiction, and a rhetorical question based upon it.

NICHOLAS; If you think your haughtiness is a fiction, you should re-read your posts.

My haughtiness? I won't even argue that.

JOE: This is a straw man argument and furthermore a form of conversation terrorism.

NICHOLAS: That you feel terrorized y my observations has nothing to do wth ME, since I am not terrorizing you.

Ok, whatever. Why did you feel such a need to say that, then?

NICHOLAS: "Not wanting or needing your respect, still I ask, exactly what are you saying "my position" is?"

JOE: Your position is that Spyridon may have been justified in his move (which I don't believe for reasons I stated and you ignored) and furthermore what was unjustified in his move (World Orthodoxy) was caused by his sudden closeness to "Cyprianism". Both are a load of garbage, in my book, and I am not afraid to tell you that.

NICHOLAS: Your "courage" is duly noted. What I said was that if he'd spent any time in ROCOR, he was already psychologically prepared to join the MP.

My 'courage'? This is rich. And you are wrong. Many members of ROCOR have since left for other Churches, but you pretend they don't exist, as though because they didn't join your Synod they all went to the MP.

NICHOLAS: "I was merely pointing out that you too have jumped, and your current synod gave America a bishop whose ecclesiology is heretical. This is not an opinion, it's an indisputable fact."

JOE: Without getting into the nuances of Cyprianite ecclesiology,

NICHOLAS: It's isn't as refined as you're making it out to be. Kyprian taught that heretics are sick memers of the Church and therefore their mysteries are valid. This is either true or it isn't. He also taught that none of the synodal condemnations of ecumenism are binding. This is either true or it isn't.

Neither is true. And it is nuanced, as Moss has pointed out: the Romanian Cyprianites Chrismate New Calendarists.

JOE: "....These are not two jurisdictions, and you know that."

NICHOLAS: "No, I did not; now I do. Why imply I am a liar?"

JOE: Because it's difficult to confuse a rite with a jurisdiction;

NICHOLAS: You know of no local churches that use more than one rite? Hard as it it for you to believe, I do not lie.

Which True Orthodox Churches use more than one rite (or even have to (besides the Kirykites, which seem to have a "one-Bishop per continent" idea going)? With the exception of our Synod, most TOC's are TOC's for homogenous "Orthodox countries".

JOE: in your case, I believe yes, you are in fact lying, sir.

NICHOLAS: Stop with the "sir" bit. I have not lied.

Yes, sir!

JOE: "Milan did in fact elevate Chrysostom of Etna. And Auxentios raised Bishops of Milan. This isn't relevant..."

NICHOLAS: Apparently not to you, but it is most definitely relevant in and of itself. The Milan bishops obviously did not vet their candidate. From 1984 when Monk Kyprian began this pseudo synod, he was completely open about his heretical ecclesiology. "Milan does not hold that the Cyprianite ecclesiology is Orthodox..." Then the bishops should not have helped to launch Kyprianism in America.

That was never their intent and you should know that if you don't. He didn't have his own Synod; he had his own retarded ecclesiology for a year before Chrysostom was made a Bishop, and then joined with Cyprian to form the "Resisters".

JOE: I am a little tired of you pointing out the failings of other Synods

NICHOLAS: I'm glad to hear that you believe the Milan synod's consecration of Chrysostom of Etna was a failing. And if you don't think you have expended years in "pointing out the failings of other synods" read your posts on Paradosis.

I think I've gotten better and realize that some things are not worth fighting over. And I don't post on Paradosis anymore.

JOE: when you won't state the glass house you live in, sir.

NICHOLAS: Because it's not the point. You'd like to make it the point, as if all this were merely an ad hominem. As you've often said, "I'm not a cheer leader" for my synod. Truth remains true, even if I'm with the church of satan.

Since you don't state your jurisdiction, would that be a safe assumption?

JOE: That said, not a single True Orthodox Synod has not had regrets with episcopal candidates at this point. Not a one.

NICHOLAS: Tell me how many Kyprianite bishops the GOC under M.Kyrikos have made. How many Katakombniki in Russia have Kyprianite bishops? Even Vladimir Moss has renounced Kyprianism. Even ROAC has officially declared Kyprianism to be heretical.

Even? I wasn't aware they (Moss and ROAC) WERE Cyprianite at all. But I said "regrets", not "made Cyprianite Bishops".

JOE: "...I am not terribly concerned with where you think the Church is or isn't."

NICHOLAS: I never asked you to be.

JOE: "This world is too full of people full of themselves..."

NICHOLAS:: At least you excel at projection. I am full of myself because I asked you to look at your own wanderings and where you've wound up? Do we dare not approach Joe Suaiden with an observation, except on our knees? Are you the Oz of Orthodoxy?

JOE: That's the other reason I can't stand talking to you.

NICHOLAS: Because I reveal your doublemindedness.

No, because you sound like a jackass.

JOE: You spent perfectly good minutes...

NICHOLAS: Less than a second.

You are an incredibly fast typist; no, you are a computer?

JOE: thinking up that ridiculous statement, with no basis in reality.

NICHOLAS: The reality is the way you come off. You fancy yourself a maven of Orthodoxy, and what you can't stand is to be questioned about anything you have decreed.

maven? That's new. I don't mind questioning. I mind attacks and can defend myself.

JOE: I'm happy where I've "wound up", and I don't spend time slamming on other people's jurisdictions, a pretty bad sign they are NOT happy where they've "wound up".

NICHOLAS: Meaning, "I'm rubber, you're glue: whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you."

And you sound....?

JOE: Perhaps that's why you don't state who you are part of (or if you have, I've missed it).

NICHOLAS: It's none of your business. Not everyone in Orthodoxy walks past your cross hairs.

Right. Come off the high horse and be a man. If you can say why WE ALL are not the Church (except those who know your "secret jurisdiction") then you can have the decency to say who you are under.

JOE: Last I remembered, you defended Gregory of Colorado well after everyone else,

NICHOLAS: Then you conveniently remember incorrectly: I lost many so-called friends because of my exposes of the Sketeniks on Paradosis. I'm happy to report that they have now all left Gregory.

Well good to hear. You didn't read what I said then. You defended Gregory of Colorado well after everyone else; that is, when he was finally removed from ROAC.

JOE: and then one day "realized for yourself".

Get a clue, sir.

NICHOLAS: And to think I broke with Dr. Jerjis Alajaji because he called you "vermin."

I'm sorry to hear you broke with anyone because of me. I'd say I'm touched, but I am not, because you seem to imply you now agree with him. I still talk to Jerjis rarely, but I don't think he thinks I am vermin. Since that matter is resolved, write him an email and tell him you miss him.

JOE: Fr Spyridon is not the ROCOR (nor do I buy your statement.)

NICHOLAS: Nevertheless my statement is true: ROCOR's 1994 declaration of her ecclesiology as Kyprianite helped to solder the union with the MP, for, after all, if the MP are Sergianist-ecumenist heretics, so WHAT? They are merely sick members of the Church, and since they are the Church, then we, the healthy members, may unite with her and help to heal her.

No disagreement

JOE: He's a professional schismatic.

NICHOLAS: Why are you warning us?

Because I've seen the man from the inside, having lived with him for a couple of months.

NICHOLAS: I do in fact reject Kyprianism as a heresy: I have, though, no personal animus whatsoever against Monk Kyprian. You remark is childish, Joe. I guess I must be misremembering what you're like.

JOE: You don't really know what I am like. So don't act like you know me.

NICHOLAS: I know you from your posts.

Oh, ok! :ohvey:

JOE:We've had on-and-off hostile email sessions over the past 5 years.

NICHOLAS: I've never felt hostile toward you, nor have I ever received anything hostile from you, In fact, you congratulated me on an article I wrote agaisnt the OCA (You wrote: "Dang! Good post.") But I see that these days you'd consider that article to be "pointing out the failings of other synods."

The Lord bless you.

Nicholas Candela

No, I wouldn't. But you are treating the false and the true as equally false without telling where you believe the truth is. I believe this is unconscionable and wrong.

[Incognito1583]

When I read stuff like this it only augments my feelings that I need to get the heck out of the traditional movements. These bishops run around like lost puppies because they have no mother or head. I am thinking afterall that Christ ordained the popes as that head of the churches for the safeguarding of unity. The east rejected this head, and the rest is history. Just look at their history. They act like crytp-protestants and crypto-papists [admitting they need somekind of pope]. They are their own heads. It's possible the popes were ordained to keep all these schismatics inline. I think Rome might have a case. And I think the popes kept the east united when the latter was under him.

But all these debates are pointless and solve nothing. Suaidan and the Mattehwites appear to be very argumentative individuals. I believe they need to fall on their knees before God and repent. Just going to church does not make one a Christian. The heart and mind must be converted. We must attain the mind of Christ.

I am the chief of sinners [and I apologize for my sins]. But I hope people will see there is something seriously wrong with the traditional program. I see no Divine hand guiding it.

God is not here.

[Incognito1583]

"For I am afraid that perhaps when I come I may find you to be not what I wish and may be found by you to be not what you wish; that perhaps there will be strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances"; [NASB, 2Cor.12:20].

I apologize for my sins.

[Incognito1583]

Introduction to this forum: "Information, news stories, and questions about traditionalist Orthodox Churches such as the Catacomb Churches, the GOC, MTOX, ROAC, ROCiE, and RTOC."

MY RESPONSE: Last time I check the Nicene Creed it said "ONE" holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Why can't those groups get together and resolve their differences. They make such a big deal out of nothing. And somone needs to get a handle on the clergy who are out of control and obsessed with their own egos. They need to do background checks and stop ordaining people to the bishopric who are clearly mentally or spiritually ill, and obsessed with power and control.

[joasia]

MY RESPONSE: Last time I check the Nicene Creed it said "ONE" holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The pope left it a long time ago. And what's happening with the Orthodox is a weeding out the falsehood. This was already present in the first century. It was easier to tell the difference, back then. Now, it seems like there's a lot of cammoflage. But, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church still stands.

You just need to know how to identify it. Reading these arguements won't help. You need to educate yourself about the faith to distinguish the truth from the falsehood.

You still need more time. You're heart waivers and is uncertain. You shouldn't take quick decisions, in that state of mind.

But, since you think the pope is something, it looks like you need a lot more time to discover the truth. And your arguements reflect your ignorance. To say that you should leave the traditional movement, is utter ignorance in itself. For one thing, it's not a movement, it's a foundation. To create new traditions is a movement. Humble yourself and realize that you don't see the whole picture yet. Either that or your faith has always been feeble and you will stray away from the truth.

And I still remember that you couldn't respond to my salutation of Christ is Risen. You have a lot of hatred in you. That is obvious. So it looks like you are not a true believer. And you obviously hate the tradition of the Orthodox faith.

The arguement between Joe and Nicholas is human reaction. It's uncalled for, but it happens. We all end up doing it.

What you propose is plain ignorance, coming from some deep resentment to God....because your response is that you would rather be with the papists, who are apostates. So go. Why continue to loafer around here? I've asked you that before?

If you want sincere answers than ask sincere questions. Stop judging, because buddy, you have no place to judge, considering your weak faith.

[Incognito1583]

Traditionalism made my faith week. And where did I not respond to your "Christ is risen"? I have no recollection of that.

[joasia]

Incognito,

So sorry for the mix up. You and Provo have such similar personalities.