Fr Spyridon Schnieder Finds a Home... Again.

[Suaidan]

Joe:
I know nothing of Fr Spyridon, but I'm puzzled why you would cite his peregrinations as if the ideal were to remain in the church one is born into. Were YOU not a Papist, then with World Orthodoxy, then with Gregory and ROAC (and Gregory had been with the Antiochians, The Twelve Islands, the Kiousites, the Kallinikites, the ROAC), then with World Orthodoxy again, then with some Sarum-rite, now with the Milan Synod (though these last two might be one)? And did not the Milan Synod ---in which you say you are happy---plant Kyprianism in America when it consecrated to the episcopacy Chrysostomos of Etna, M Kyprian present? Can I take this to mean you too believe heretics are sick members of the Church with valid mysteries until a council the Kyprianites accept judges otherwise?

Dear Nicholas: I've always found it most annoying to read when you mix fact with fiction. You started with "I don't know much about Fr Spyridon." Well I do. I lived with him a few months when I returned to ROAC. You shouldn't defend a man you don't know, nor attack one you don't either.

I never said that people would not have to make jurisdictional changes. My problem is why. When Father Spyridon started his path out the door of ROAC, his stated reason (And I heard him say this) was "Metr Valentine doesn't know how to have respect." If he had not operated with virtually open ambition, I might have some respect for your position. I don't. I have never gone out of my way to slam on Vladimir Moss for his changes. I believe Vladimir has been practical, but not ambitious. That is a major difference.

As for my own "changes", I was a Roman Catholic. Then I was baptized in HOCNA, having been introduced to Orthodoxy in the ROCOR (I had no communication with World Orthodoxy then). Then I went to ROAC. Then I gave up on True Orthodoxy and went to World Orthodoxy (I tried to go to Milan before I gave up on the whole TOC thing). After my life fell apart it was a sign to return. I then stayed with ROAC, and finally went to Milan (which has a Sarum usage, these are not two jurisdictions and you know that). Now that that's cleared up....

Milan did in fact elevate Chrysostomos of Etna. And Auxentios raised the Bishops of Milan. This isn't relevant and you can't connect apples and oranges. Milan does not hold that the Cyprianite ecclesiology is Orthodox and states that members should not partake of the mysteries from the Cyprianites for being twice-deposed.

That said, I am not terribly concerned with where you think the Church is and isn't. I know where it is, and this world is too full of people full of themselves who are quite ready to say where it isn't.

Anyone who'd been in ROCOR and believed her teachings would see no problem in joining the Kapralites , since...it'd be funny.

I'm cutting off your whole paragraph to say: And? What does your pontification have to do with the price of tea in China?

Oh wait. Here it comes.

I guess you just don't like this poor storm-tossed Spyridon, who's now washed up on the shore of Kapral-MP, guided there by the winds of Kyprian.

Nicholas Candela

Oh yes, poor Spyridon. Can I be the first to stamp the word "sucker" on your forehead, sir? Because frankly you've got a lot of hate for Metr Cyprian, enough to blame the actions of a man who's repeatedly proven (at least in the little I saw of the man) that he's got as much grace as a used-car salesman with the honesty to match.

No sir, don't blame Metr Cyprian. I am no fan of Metr Cyprian. But I will not blame him for the pride of others.

Fr Spyridon needs no help sending himself to flaming hell.

And a postscript: I hope Fr Spyridon does not do so, and returns to a genuine confession of faith. Bp Vladimir gave him a month to repent and return to the Church as a priest or be deposed. The month has more than passed. He still has his lifetime to repent as a Christian. I am hoping for such to occur, though I doubt it, and have questioned his motives for years now. But only God knows his motives in the end; let us hope whatever his motives, they return him to the Church.

[joasia]

The only thing that should be a guide of measuring the facts is the teachings. Who is teaching things that are not the Apostolic Tradition? If the divisions are based on personal dislikes then there should be a reconcilliation. And if you men are arguing because of personal bias then you should re-assess your motives.

Are you arguing for the sake of faith or because you dislike certain clergy?

In Christ, Joanna

[nicholas candela]

Joe wrote: "I've always found it most annoying to read when you mix fact with fiction." I posted no fiction. I've never posted anything fictitious, so why you make it sound as if I always do I'll leave you to ponder.

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 "You shouldn't defend a man you don't know."  I was not defending him. I was daring to question your citing his peregrinations as if they were per se a sign of his bad character,  when you have your own sojournings. We ALL have our own. 

 "....Nor attack one you don't..." I wasn't attacking you.

 "I never said that people would not have to make jurisdictional 

changes. My problem is why." So all your choices have been from absolutely pure motives, and all his from absolutely bad? I'm just asking. Is one allowed to ask you a question without incurring your hauteur?

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 "If (Fr Syridon) had not operated with virutally open ambition, I might have some respect for your position." Not wanting or needing your respect, still I ask, exactly what are you saying "my position" is? I was merely pointng out that you too have jumped, and your current synod gave America a bishop whose ecclesiology is heretical. This is not an opinion, it's an indisputable fact. 

 "....These are not two jurisdictions, and you know that." No, I did not; now I do. Why imply I am a liar?

 "Milan did in fact elevate Chrysostom of Etna. And Auxentios raised Bishops of Milan. This isn't relevant..."  Apparently not to you, but it is most definitely relevant in and of itself. The Milan bishops obviously did not vet their candidate. From 1984 when Monk Kyprian began this pseudo synod, he was completely open about his heretical ecclesiology. "Milan does not hold that the Cyprianite ecclesiology is Orthodox..." Then the bishops should not have helped to launch Kyprianism in America.

 "...I am not terribly concerned with where you think the Church is or isn't."   I never asked you to be. "...This world is too full of people full of themselves..." At least you excel at projection. I am full of myself because I asked you to look at your own wanderings and where you've wound up? Do we dare not approach Joe Suaiden with an observation, except on our knees? Are you  the Oz of Orthodoxy? 

 "What does your pontification have to do with the price of tea in China?" I am not pontificating: I was making a point, just as YOU try to make points. ROCOR's Kyprianite ecclesiology led to the union with the MP.

 "...You've got a lot of hate for Met, Cyprian..." Indeed? Then I should stop praying for him. I do in fact reject Kyprianism as a heresy: I have, though,  no personal animus whatsoever against Monk Kyprian. You remark is childish, Joe. I guess I must be misremembering what you're like.

 I see that you're too thin-skinned to speak rationally. So I will no longer bother to respond to your tiresome, score-settling, gossipy bulletins.

  Nicholas Candela

[/i]

[Suaidan]

Joe wrote: "I've always found it most annoying to read when you mix fact with fiction." I posted no fiction. I've never posted anything fictitious, so why you make it sound as if I always do I'll leave you to ponder.

I don't have to ponder. That's what quotes are for.

1. "...but I'm puzzled why you would cite his peregrinations as if the ideal were to remain in the church one is born into." -Since I explained my thoughts on his motives, which was not the above, the above quote is deceptive.

2. " Were YOU not a Papist, then with World Orthodoxy," -Another error. I was baptized in HOCNA.

3. "then with some Sarum-rite, now with the Milan Synod (though these last two might be one)?" - This can only be described as deceptive. I was with a "rite", then a "Church"? No, Nicholas, you are trying to imply I was more places than I was.

4. "Can I take this to mean you too believe heretics are sick members of the Church with valid mysteries until a council the Kyprianites accept judges otherwise?" - Again, fiction. The Milan Synod has never approved of Cyprian's independent ecclesiology and to the contrary condemns his actions. I sense you know that, though I can't prove it. Regardless, stated as a matter of fact, it is a matter of fiction.

5. "I was daring to question your citing his peregrinations as if they were per se a sign of his bad character, when you have your own sojournings." - But I never said anything of the sort!

6. "I wasn't attacking you." - Now you are.

7. "So all your choices have been from absolutely pure motives, and all his from absolutely bad? I'm just asking. Is one allowed to ask you a question without incurring your hauteur?"- Another fiction, and a rhetorical question based upon it. This is a straw man argument and furthermore a form of conversation terrorism.

8. "Not wanting or needing your respect, still I ask, exactly what are you saying "my position" is?"

Your position is that Spyridon may have been justified in his move (which I don't believe for reasons I stated and you ignored) and furthermore what was unjustified in his move (World Orthodoxy) was caused by his sudden closeness to "Cyprianism". Both are a load of garbage, in my book, and I am not afraid to tell you that.

1. "I was merely pointng out that you too have jumped, and your current synod gave America a bishop whose ecclesiology is heretical. This is not an opinion, it's an indisputable fact."
   
   Without getting into the nuances of Cyprianite ecclesiology, I think I have stated enough opinions and fictions to put the above into question.

"....These are not two jurisdictions, and you know that." No, I did not; now I do. Why imply I am a liar?

Because it's difficult to confuse a rite with a jurisdiction; in your case, I believe yes, you are in fact lying, sir.

"Milan did in fact elevate Chrysostom of Etna. And Auxentios raised Bishops of Milan. This isn't relevant..." Apparently not to you, but it is most definitely relevant in and of itself. The Milan bishops obviously did not vet their candidate. From 1984 when Monk Kyprian began this pseudo synod, he was completely open about his heretical ecclesiology. "Milan does not hold that the Cyprianite ecclesiology is Orthodox..." Then the bishops should not have helped to launch Kyprianism in America.

I am a little tired of you pointing out the failings of other Synods when you won't state the glass house you live in, sir. That said, not a single True Orthodox Synod has not had regrets with episcopal candidates at this point. Not a one.

"...I am not terribly concerned with where you think the Church is or isn't." I never asked you to be. "...This world is too full of people full of themselves..." At least you excel at projection. I am full of myself because I asked you to look at your own wanderings and where you've wound up? Do we dare not approach Joe Suaiden with an observation, except on our knees? Are you the Oz of Orthodoxy?

That's the other reason I can't stand talking to you. You spent perfectly good minutes thinking up that ridiculous statement, with no basis in reality. I'm happy where I've "wound up", and I don't spend time slamming on other people's jurisdictions, a pretty bad sign they are NOT happy where they've "wound up". Perhaps that's why you don't state who you are part of (or if you have, I've missed it). Last I remembered, you defended Gregory of Colorado well after everyone else, and then one day "realized for yourself".

Get a clue, sir.

ROCOR's Kyprianite ecclesiology led to the union with the MP.

Fr Spyridon is not the ROCOR (nor do I buy your statement.) He's a professional schismatic.

"...You've got a lot of hate for Met, Cyprian..." Indeed? Then I should stop praying for him.

Maybe his health would improve?

I do in fact reject Kyprianism as a heresy: I have, though, no personal animus whatsoever against Monk Kyprian. You remark is childish, Joe. I guess I must be misremembering what you're like.

You don't really know what I am like. So don't act like you know me. We've had on-and-off hostile email sessions over the past 5 years.

That doesn't mean you know me.

I see that you're too thin-skinned to speak rationally. So I will no longer bother to respond to your tiresome, score-settling, gossipy bulletins.

I imagine by now you think I have no skin at all. No great loss. I don't believe you, but no great loss anyway. Bulletins don't save one's soul anyway. You'll be fine without me.

[...]

Perhaps that's why you don't state who you are part of

He is a G.C.M. aca Genuine Confused Matthewite.
Too many matthewite in this forum

We've had on-and-off hostile email sessions over the past 5 years. This is a straw man argument and furthermore a form of conversation terrorism.

a form of G.O.B. aca genuine orthodox bullies...

Joe it's pointless trying to talk with them. Look back all their fights.. Post what you want to post, don't reply to them (what they only want is "conversation terrorism")

This world is too full of people full of themselves

Maybe the second "full" is FOOL, instead of full...

[Constantine]

He is a G.C.M. aca Genuine Confused Matthewite.
Too many matthewite in this forum

You mean to many members of the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece. I can see why that would bother you.

[nicholas candela]

I just saw this today, so I'm answering today.

JOE: I've always found it most annoying to read when you mix fact with fiction.

NICHOLAS: I posted no fiction. I've never posted anything fictitious, so why you make it sound as if I always do I'll leave you to ponder.

JOE: I don't have to ponder. That's what quotes are for.

NICHOLAS: "...but I'm puzzled why you would cite (Fr Spyridon's) peregrinations as if the ideal were to remain in the church one is born into."

JOE: Since I explained my thoughts on his motives, which was not the above, the above quote is deceptive.

NICHOLAS: No: it's illustrative.

NICHOLAS: " Were YOU not a Papist, then with World Orthodoxy...?"

JOE: Another error.

NICHOLAS: There was no first error. And you were born a Papist.

JOE: I was baptized in HOCNA.

NICHOLAS: SInce HOCNA is not the Church, you were not baptized.

NICHOLAS: "...then with some Sarum-rite, now with the Milan Synod (though these last two might be one)?"

JOE:This can only be described as deceptive.

NICHOLAS: Only by a paranoiac.

JOE: I was with a "rite", then a "Church"?

NICHOLAS: Why not? Many local churches use more than one rite.

JOE: No, Nicholas, you are trying to imply I was more places than I was.

NICHOLAS: No I was not.

NICHOLS: "Can I take this to mean you too believe heretics are sick members of the Church with valid mysteries until a council the Kyprianites accept judges otherwise?"-

JOE: Again, fiction.

NICHOLAS: You use the word "again" as if you were building an unanswerable case against me. Since it is your synod who made a Kyprianite bishop for America, the question is valid.

JOE: The Milan Synod has never approved of Cyprian's independent ecclesiology and to the contrary condemns his actions.

NICHOLAS: Fr Elia---who, last I cared, was a member of your Milan synod---posted a photo on Paradosis which showed Chrysostomos of Etna being consecrated a bishop, M Cyprian looking on. If the Milan synod rejects Kyprianism, they have a funny way of showing it.

JOE: I sense you know that, though I can't prove it.

NICHOLAS: Your synod's actions have taught me to know just the opposite.

JOE: Regardless, stated as a matter of fact, it is a matter of fiction.

NICHOLAS: Only in your mind.

NICHOLAS: "I was daring to question your citing his peregrinations as if they were per se a sign of his bad character, when you have your own sojournings." - But I never said anything of the sort!

NICHOLAS: So you were CONGRATULATING HIM on all his wanderings?

NICHOLAS: "I wasn't attacking you."

JOE: Now you are.

NICHOLAS: Only if you feel attacked merely by being addressed.

NICHOLAS: "So all your choices have been from absolutely pure motives, and all his from absolutely bad? I'm just asking. Is one allowed to ask you a question without incurring your hauteur?"

JOE: Another fiction, and a rhetorical question based upon it.

NICHOLAS; If you think your haughtiness is a fiction, you should re-read your posts.

JOE: This is a straw man argument and furthermore a form of conversation terrorism.

NICHOLAS: That you feel terrorized y my observations has nothing to do wth ME, since I am not terrorizing you.

NICHOLAS: "Not wanting or needing your respect, still I ask, exactly what are you saying "my position" is?"

JOE: Your position is that Spyridon may have been justified in his move (which I don't believe for reasons I stated and you ignored) and furthermore what was unjustified in his move (World Orthodoxy) was caused by his sudden closeness to "Cyprianism". Both are a load of garbage, in my book, and I am not afraid to tell you that.

NICHOLAS: Your "courage" is duly noted. What I said was that if he'd spent any time in ROCOR, he was already psychologically prepared to join the MP.

NICHOLAS: "I was merely pointing out that you too have jumped, and your current synod gave America a bishop whose ecclesiology is heretical. This is not an opinion, it's an indisputable fact."

JOE: Without getting into the nuances of Cyprianite ecclesiology,

NICHOLAS: It's isn't as refined as you're making it out to be. Kyprian taught that heretics are sick memers of the Church and therefore their mysteries are valid. This is either true or it isn't. He also taught that none of the synodal condemnations of ecumenism are binding. This is either true or it isn't.

JOE: I think I have stated enough opinions and fictions to put the above into question.

NICHOLAS: You, of course, have NOT.

JOE: "....These are not two jurisdictions, and you know that."

NICHOLAS: "No, I did not; now I do. Why imply I am a liar?"

JOE: Because it's difficult to confuse a rite with a jurisdiction;

NICHOLAS: You know of no local churches that use more than one rite? Hard as it it for you to believe, I do not lie.

JOE: in your case, I believe yes, you are in fact lying, sir.

NICHOLAS: Stop with the "sir" bit. I have not lied.

JOE: "Milan did in fact elevate Chrysostom of Etna. And Auxentios raised Bishops of Milan. This isn't relevant..."

NICHOLAS: Apparently not to you, but it is most definitely relevant in and of itself. The Milan bishops obviously did not vet their candidate. From 1984 when Monk Kyprian began this pseudo synod, he was completely open about his heretical ecclesiology. "Milan does not hold that the Cyprianite ecclesiology is Orthodox..." Then the bishops should not have helped to launch Kyprianism in America.

JOE: I am a little tired of you pointing out the failings of other Synods

NICHOLAS: I'm glad to hear that you believe the Milan synod's consecration of Chrysostom of Etna was a failing. And if you don't think you have expended years in "pointing out the failings of other synods" read your posts on Paradosis.

JOE: when you won't state the glass house you live in, sir.

NICHOLAS: Because it's not the point. You'd like to make it the point, as if all this were merely an ad hominem. As you've often said, "I'm not a cheer leader" for my synod. Truth remains true, even if I'm with the church of satan.

JOE: That said, not a single True Orthodox Synod has not had regrets with episcopal candidates at this point. Not a one.

NICHOLAS: Tell me how many Kyprianite bishops the GOC under M.Kyrikos have made. How many Katakombniki in Russia have Kyprianite bishops? Even Vladimir Moss has renounced Kyprianism. Even ROAC has officially declared Kyprianism to be heretical.

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JOE:  "...I am not terribly concerned with where you think the Church is or isn't."  

NICHOLAS: I never asked you to be.

JOE: "This world is too full of people full of themselves..."

NICHOLAS:: At least you excel at projection. I am full of myself because I asked you to look at your own wanderings and where you've wound up? Do we dare not approach Joe Suaiden with an observation, except on our knees? Are you the Oz of Orthodoxy?

JOE: That's the other reason I can't stand talking to you.

NICHOLAS: Because I reveal your doublemindedness.

JOE: You spent perfectly good minutes...

NICHOLAS: Less than a second.

JOE: thinking up that ridiculous statement, with no basis in reality.

NICHOLAS: The reality is the way you come off. You fancy yourself a maven of Orthodoxy, and what you can't stand is to be questioned about anything you have decreed.

JOE: I'm happy where I've "wound up", and I don't spend time slamming on other people's jurisdictions, a pretty bad sign they are NOT happy where they've "wound up".

NICHOLAS: Meaning, "I'm rubber, you're glue: whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you."

JOE: Perhaps that's why you don't state who you are part of (or if you have, I've missed it).

NICHOLAS: It's none of your business. Not everyone in Orthodoxy walks past your cross hairs.

JOE: Last I remembered, you defended Gregory of Colorado well after everyone else,

NICHOLAS: Then you conveniently remember incorrectly: I lost many so-called friends because of my exposes of the Sketeniks on Paradosis. I'm happy to report that they have now all left Gregory.

JOE: and then one day "realized for yourself".

Get a clue, sir.

NICHOLAS: And to think I broke with Dr. Jerjis Alajaji because he called you "vermin."

JOE: Fr Spyridon is not the ROCOR (nor do I buy your statement.)

NICHOLAS: Nevertheless my statement is true: ROCOR's 1994 declaration of her ecclesiology as Kyprianite helped to solder the union with the MP, for, after all, if the MP are Sergianist-ecumenist heretics, so WHAT? They are merely sick members of the Church, and since they are the Church, then we, the healthy members, may unite with her and help to heal her.

JOE: He's a professional schismatic.

NICHOLAS: Why are you warning us?

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 JOE: "...You've got a lot of hate for Met, Cyprian..." 

NICHOLAS: What an infantile way of expressing my aversion to M .Kyprian's false teaching.

NICHOLAS: Indeed? Then I should stop praying for him.

JOE: Maybe his health would improve?

NICHOLAS: Yeah right: God does not hear my prayer for M Kyprian because I do not agree with Joe Suaiden.

NICHOLAS: I do in fact reject Kyprianism as a heresy: I have, though, no personal animus whatsoever against Monk Kyprian. You remark is childish, Joe. I guess I must be misremembering what you're like.

JOE: You don't really know what I am like. So don't act like you know me.

NICHOLAS: I know you from your posts.

JOE:We've had on-and-off hostile email sessions over the past 5 years.

NICHOLAS: I've never felt hostile toward you, nor have I ever received anything hostile from you, In fact, you congratulated me on an article I wrote agaisnt the OCA (You wrote: "Dang! Good post.") But I see that these days you'd consider that article to be "pointing out the failings of other synods."

The Lord bless you.

Nicholas Candela