Pope, Orthodox patriarch meet privately, pray together

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Papoutsis1
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A little Canon Law

Post by Papoutsis1 »

THE 30 CANONS OF THE HOLY FOURTH COUNCIL

The accusal of clergy to be heretical:

CANON 21
Clergymen or laymen accusing Bishops or Clergymen are not to be allowed to file charges against them promiscuously and without investigation until their own reputation h as been examined into.

CANON 9
If any Clergyman has a dispute with another, let him not leave his own Bishop and resort to secular courts, but let him first submit his case to his own Bishop, or let it be tried by referees chosen by both parties and approved by the Bishop. Let anyone who acts contrary hereto be liable to Canonical penalties. If, on the other hand, a Clergyman has a dispute with his own Bishop, or with some other Bishop, let it be tried by the Synod of the province. But if any Bishop or Clergyman has a dispute with the Metropolitan of the same province, let him apply either to the Exarch of the diocese or to the throne of the imperial capital Constantinople, and let it be tried before him.

I don't think you guys did this! naughty, naughty.

I especially like this one in regards to you schismatics:

CANON 18
The crime of conspiracy, or of faction (i.e., of factious partisanship), already prohibited by secular laws, ought still more to be forbidden to obtain in the Church of God. If, therefore, there be found any Clergymen, or Monastics, to be conspiring or to he engaged in factiousness of any kind, or hatching plots against Bishops or Fellow Clergymen, they shall forfeit their own rank altogether.

Forfeit rank, Oh God no!

and now for the coup de graue

THE 85 CANONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES

CANON 1 A Bishop must be ordained by two or three other Bishops.

I don't think you guys did this either. Bad boys (and girls). I don't think you guys like these canons. Also, interpret them for me, just cite to the Holy Synod that interpreted these canons, HEARD STRICT EVIDENCE OF HERESY from any World Orthodox Bishop/Patriarch, and let's put this puppy to bed. Otherwise, what you think is meaningless, tell me what the SPIRITUAL COURT DECIDED and please cite properly so it can be verified.

God Bless

Peter

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Jean-Serge
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Re: Validity

Post by Jean-Serge »

Papoutsis1 wrote:

There can only be ONE BAPTISM! Many so-called Traditional Orthodox do no even accept the validity of Baptism of the GOA, but the question is why? The GOA is Canonical the TOC are NOT canonical and are true schismatics so it is your Baptism that is more invalid than the RCC that actually has the anathemas lifted from it.

Typical reaction of a Godless ecumenist. He feels nearer from a catholic believing in Papal infallibility, filioque, inmaculate conception, created energies, holy heart of Jesus than from a traditionnal orthodox who has the same doctrine as him!!

He was not able to prove neither that the lifting of anathemas was canonical, neither that praying with heretics was canonical but claims he is canonical... He asserted that the Fathers thought that the baptism of heretics was conveying grace and when we gave him proofs of the contrary, now he says that the baptism of true orthodox is void. He claims that a bishop should be chirotonised by three bishops whereas the reading of the canons shows that this need in reality the agreement of the whole synod and when this is ok, two bishops can make this if the third one . He really ignores the history of True Orthodox Churches... And above all, after spreading attacks he concludes with "God Bless"...

I think he is not in the right place and is simply causing mess... and spreading slander... Maybe an eviction would be a good thing... The spiritual interest of all this is near 0...

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

Papoutsis1
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Good Night Nurse

Post by Papoutsis1 »

I gave you thecanons that show that you have invalid Bishops that were not consecrated properly and you ignore them and interpret or twist the canons to your own needs. I think I made my point!

Good night and God Bless

Peter

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Jean-Serge
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Post by Jean-Serge »

I gave you canons explicitely saying that it was forbidden to pray with heretics... and you were unable to show a single canon allowing to pray with heretics... I think I made my point!

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

Peter,

Papists don't baptise, they sprinkle/pour on the head. Therefore, there was never a legitimate baptism. And there are plenty of churches under Bartholomew that don't baptise but pour on the head.

Since you're so big on things being done canonically, then why do your Greek New Calendar churches defy that? Even Christ was baptised. Do you have a canon on baptism?

And do you have a canon on abolishing fasts which the Greek(N.S) seem to allow?

And the lifting of the anathema of the papists...it was not by the Ecumenical Council. It was decided by Bartholomew, who considers himself the head of Orthodoxy. And the changing of the calendar, by Meletios. Your precious Patriarchs of Constantinople have acted of their own will, not by the decision of an ECUMENICAL COUNCIL. Can you find a canon about THAT?

Last edited by joasia on Sun 23 March 2008 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

According to recent reports this is now happening. Patriarch Bartholomew I is reported as saying, "[The Orthodox Church feels] the need for renovation...For instance, the prescription of a forty days fast before Easter and Christmas is scarcely feasible today outside of monasteries." He further claims, "Our aims are like John's [Pope John XXIII]: to update the Church and promote Christian unity... By the grace of God, all Orthodox Churches now favor ecumenism." (National Catholic Reporter, Jan. 21, 1977)


In 1923 he(Meletios) summoned the so-called "Pan-Orthodox Congress," which introduced the Gregorian calendar and discussed the possibility of a second marriage for priests. Concerning these changes, Metropolitan Antony (Khrapovitsky) wrote, "From the moment of that sorrowful Pan-Orthodox Congress of Patriarch Meletios (who gave such a self-proclaimed title to a meeting of four to six bishops and a few priests, without the participation of the other three Patriarchs), from the time of that un-Orthodox Congress, an act of vandalism was wrought against Orthodoxy. Many reforms were proposed, which the Church with terrible, binding curses had forbidden; reforms such as married bishops, a second marriage for clergy and the abolition of fasts. It is true that this un-Orthodox Congress did not succeed in officially promulgating all these impious violations of Church laws, limiting itself to proposing the institution of the New Style calendar and the celebration of all the holy days thirteen days earlier than proscribed, while leaving the Paschalia untouched. This senseless and pointless concession to Masonry and to Papism, which long ago had tried to institute such a change of calendar in their attempt to totally absorb the Unia in Latinism (the main external difference between the Uniates and Latins is the Old Style calendar of the former), violates the Apostolic ordinance of the Sts. Peter and Paul fast, for if the New Style calendar is followed, when Pascha falls on April 21 (O.S.) or later, the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul occurs before the Sunday of All Saints, and therefore the preceding Fast is totally eliminated!"


"Patriarch Meletios was well-known as a supporter of the Russian 'Living Church' movement, which rose up against Patriarch Tikhon; he also initiated the adoption of the Latin calendar by the churches of Constantinople, Romania and Poland, and created a Polish autocephalous church, which turned over the Orthodox living in Poland into the hands of the Polish nationalists" (see the proceedings concerning the murder of the Polish Metropolitan George, compiled by Archimandrite Smaragdus).


It is clearly evident that the Patriarchate has chosen a definite course, which it is unwilling to change. The alarm of the Athonite fathers is understandable when one considers that according to Church canons even interfaith prayers with heretics are forbidden, not to mention intercommunion. According to Orthodox understanding the Roman Catholics are heretics, and their sacraments are devoid of divine grace. St. Mark of Ephesus maintained, "The Latins are not only schismatics, but heretics" and St. Gregory Palamas wrote, "The Latins have left the enclosure of the Church."


Let us pause for a moment at the idea of calling a "Great Council of the Orthodox Church" and examine what the righteous Archimandrite Justin (Popovich) wrote about this event. We quote his letter of May 7, 1977, written in the name of the Bishop's Council of the Serbian Orthodox Church. Fr. Justin indicates the untimeliness of such a council, and the artificial selection of topics which reveal the papist pretensions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. He writes, "The question of preparation for and calling of an "Ecumenical Council" of the Orthodox Church is not new. This question was proposed during the life of the unfortunate Patriarch Meletios (Metaxakis), the creator of a schism in Orthodoxy as a result of his so-called "Pan-Orthodox Congress" held in Constantinople in 1923.


Regarding the Moscow and Constantinople delegations present at the first pre-council meeting in 1987, discussing a forthcoming new "Ecumenical Council," Fr. Justin writes, "Who do they [the delegates] really represent, which Church and what people of God? The hierarchy of Constantinople present at these meetings consists mainly of titled metropolitans and bishops. These are pastors without a flock and without any concrete responsibility before God and their living flock. Who does this hierarchy represent, and who will it represent at a future council? Recently the Patriarchate of Constantinople has created many new bishoprics and metropolitan seats, sees that are only titular and indeed fictitious in nature, since the actual communities no longer exist. This is being done, no doubt, in preparation for the upcoming 'Ecumenical Council,' where, with a majority created by these titled delegates, enough votes will be cast to support the neo-papist ambitions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.


Recently the Patriarchate has even actively participated in dialogue with Monophysites, who unfortunately were not brought to repentance and union with the Orthodox Church by the dialogue, but rather the dialogue led to apostasy from Orthodoxy. We read, "The two families [Orthodox and Monophysite] accept that the lifting of the anathemas and condemnations will be based on the fact that the Councils and the Fathers previously anathematized or condemned, were not heretics" (Point 10 of the Second Joint Declaration composed at the Ecumenical Patriarchate Centre, Geneva, Switzerland, September, 1990). Can we accept such a decision, which annuls the former decrees of Ecumenical Councils? Reviewing all that has been said above, it is difficult not to reach the conclusion that the Patriarchate of Constantinople is in fact taking a decidedly un-Orthodox position.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

Papoutsis1
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Wrong again my fine feathered friend

Post by Papoutsis1 »

I gave you canons explicitely saying that it was forbidden to pray with heretics... and you were unable to show a single canon allowing to pray with heretics... I think I made my point!

No I don't want canons I want the church council that held court, or the synod that held court that took evidence heard tesimony and pronounced a verdict of heresy. If you have no such spiritual court you have nothing and you are in direct violations of the Canons.

Further, this is WHY YOU NEED a spritual court so that the canons are properly interpreted. What does it mean to pray with a heretic? Who is a heretic? are the Roman Catholics heretics within the meaning of the Canon? These are the questions that need answering if a charge of heresy is leveled. So where is the Court's decision NOT YOURS!

Please try again.

PS you know what the criminal code is? I deal with it everyday just like many other attorneys. We don't interpret it the Court does. That what were need here according to the Canons.

God Bless

Peter

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