Pope, Orthodox patriarch meet privately, pray together

[Sean]

Grape for me. Thanks!

[Papoutsis1]

Cool Dat

Peter

[joasia]

4. That the Orthodox churches declare that the Orthodox reception of Catholics by chrismation does not constitute a repetition of any part of their sacramental initiation;

That's bogus. They are admitting that they receive the papists by chrismation and therefore, they are accepting their "baptism". They are accepting "their sacramental initiation". If the baptism wasn't accepted, by true Orthodox dogmas, then the papists would have to be baptised.

5. That our churches make clear that the mutual recognition of baptism

Which baptism? That of the Orthodox or that of the combination of Worldly Orthodox and papism? Above, it was stated that the papist would be admitted by chrismation. NOW they are stating that the baptism is a "mutual recognition"? So who needs christmation if the baptism of papists is mutually "recognized"?

does not of itself resolve the issues that divide us, or reestablish full ecclesial communion between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, but that it does remove a fundamental obstacle on our path towards full communion.

What is the obstacle? This is a totally ambiguous statement.

[Papoutsis1]

Joasia:

4. The Non-Repeatability of Baptism: It is our common teaching that baptism in water in the name of the Holy Trinity, as the Christian's new birth, is given once and once only. In the language of fourth-century Fathers of East and West, it confers the indelible seal (sphragis, character) of the King. As the definitive entry of an individual believer into the Church, it cannot be repeated. To be sure, the grace of baptism may be betrayed by serious sin, but in such cases the modes prescribed for the recovery of grace are repentance, confession, and -- in the Orthodox usage for apostasy -- anointing with the sacred chrism; reconciliation with the Church is never accomplished by baptism, whose repetition we have always recognized as a sacrilege. C. The Results of our Investigation: "We Confess One Baptism"

The Fathers are clear that there cannot be Two Baptisms. If mutually recognized Baptisms are not recognized you are in direct violation of the Niceno-Contandinopilan Creed.

Therefore, one Baptism is recognized and one only. Thus, one is forced to accept the vailidity of The Roman Catholic Baptisim.

God Bless

Peter

[Jean-Serge]

This is entirely wrong. See canons 46 and 47 of the canon of the Apostles.

46. We order any Bishop, or Presbyter, that has accepted any heretics’ Baptism, or sacrifice, to be deposed; for "what consonancy hath Christ with Beliart or what part hath the believer with an infidel?"

1. If a Bishop or Presbyter baptize anew anyone that has had a true baptism, of fail to baptize anyone that has been polluted by the impious, let him be deposed, on the ground that he is mocking the Cross and death of the Lord and railing to distinguish priests from pseudopriests.

Commentary by Saint Nicodemus

For neither can the abominable baptism of heretics make true Christians out of those who are baptized with it, nor can their ordination make true priests out of those ordained, according to Apostolical Canon LXVIII.

See also the canons of Saint Basil and in particular canon 1

For although the ones who were the first to depart had been ordained by the Fathers and with the imposition of their hands they had obtained the gracious gift of the Spirit, yet after breaking away they became laymen, and had no authority either to baptize or to ordain anyone, nor could they impart the grace of the Spirit to others, after they themselves had forfeited it. Wherefore they bade that those baptized by them should be regarded as baptized by laymen, and that when they came to join the Church they should have to be repurified by the true baptism as prescribed by the Church.

[joasia]

Pap, what are you talking about?

The Fathers are clear that there cannot be Two Baptisms. If mutually recognized Baptisms are not recognized you are in direct violation of the Niceno-Contandinopilan Creed.

Therefore, one Baptism is recognized and one only. Thus, one is forced to accept the vailidity of The Roman Catholic Baptisim.

Explain, to me, why I should be "forced" to accept the "validity" of the papist baptism?

[Papoutsis1]

There can only be ONE BAPTISM! Many so-called Traditional Orthodox do no even accept the validity of Baptism of the GOA, but the question is why? The GOA is Canonical the TOC are NOT canonical and are true schismatics so it is your Baptism that is more invalid than the RCC that actually has the anathemas lifted from it.

Further, I didn't want to bring this up before, but you are aware that TOC do NOT have valid apostolic succession. Most, if not all, of their Bishops have only been ordained by ONE Bishop when the Canons require THREE! so who here truly has invalid sacraments?
ANSWER: THE TOC!

The theology is sound, your is not! If you read, truly read, the canons of the Church you will discover one very big gapping hole _ NO ECCLESIASTICAL COURT HAS EVER PRONOUNCED THE PARTIARCH AND THE NEW CALENDARISTS AS HERETICAL!!!

This is in direct violation of Canon law that requires strict proof and evidence as ina court of law with the acciser having the burden of proof. No such proceeding has ever, AND I EMPHASIZE NEVER, took place!

Therefore, you have no right to privately interpret the Canons, only a full and proper eccesiastical court of properly conviened bishops has the right to try any Bishop and/or Patriarch for violations of Canon law.

So please show me the spiritual court, in either the Greek, Serbian or Russian Churches were this has taken place. If you cannot show me this then your whole argument, and your whole existence as True Orthodox Christians is a sham and false and you have no legal basis to privately interpret the Canons.

Make sure you read that in the RUDDER. We are not our own private judge and jury. Show me the evidence of heresy in so-called WORLD ORTHODOX that has been fully presented, argued and judgment has been passed. Otherwise, YOU are in open violation of the Canons

Good night and God Bless!

Peter