Pope, Orthodox patriarch meet privately, pray together

[Sean]

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/storie ... 801277.htm

POPE-BARTHOLOMEW Mar-6-2008 (710 words) With photos. xxxi

Pope, Orthodox patriarch meet privately, pray together

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI and Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople spent almost half an hour speaking privately March 6 before going into a small Vatican chapel to pray together.

Although it was the patriarch's first visit to the Vatican since Pope Benedict's election and the funeral of Pope John Paul II in April 2005, the visit was not a formal, orchestrated affair.

The pope and the patriarch did not exchange speeches, but instead sat across a table from each other talking.

And instead of participating in a liturgy, they walked into the tiny Chapel of Urban VIII near the papal library, stood in front of a painting of the Nativity and prayed silently.

After a few moments, the two began reciting the Lord's Prayer in Latin. When the prayer was finished, the pope turned to his guest -- as if to see if he was ready to leave -- and the patriarch began reciting the Hail Mary in Latin. The pope joined in.

When the prayer was finished, the two turned to their aides and together blessed them.

Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew held their first formal meeting in Turkey in 2006 and met for less formal discussions in October in Naples, Italy.

The patriarch was in Rome to help mark the 90th anniversary of the Jesuit-run Pontifical Oriental Institute, where he earned his doctoral degree.

The patriarch delivered a lecture on "theology, liturgy and silence," focusing on how the spiritual experience of Eastern Christianity can promote Christian unity and respond to the needs of modern men and women.

Patriarch Bartholomew praised the Oriental Institute's commitment to promoting the study of the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches and its contributions to Christian unity, particularly by highlighting the Eastern tradition in the heart of the Catholic Church.

"The church fathers were primarily pastors, not philosophers, " he said. "They were concerned first with reforming the human heart and transforming society, not with refining concepts or resolving controversies. "

The patriarch said that at the center of their pastoral work was a recognition that humanity is "called to know and to become God," the call to holiness which the Orthodox term "deification. "

When Christians keep in mind the possibility that every human being and all of creation can be transformed in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, then they will meet every person and every situation with an attitude of awe and anticipation rather than judgment or fear, he said.

Patriarch Bartholomew said the Orthodox tradition calls for silence and humility "before the awesome mystery of God, before the sacred personhood of human beings and before the beauty of creation."

He told students and professors of the Oriental Institute and several Vatican officials, "We must at all times be prepared to create new openings and to build bridges, ever deepening our relationship with God, with other people and with creation itself."

The patriarch also said theologians and pastors would benefit by remembering that the early church fathers, recognized by both Orthodox and Catholics, "never perceived theology as a monopoly of the professional academic or the official hierarchy."

"Orthodoxy," he said, "was the common responsibility and obligation of all."

And, he said, the liturgy -- a communal celebration -- was the place where the community learned, expressed and strengthened its faith.

"Whereas the gradual development in the West of a juridical source of authority led to an understanding of liturgical rites more as external signs, Eastern Christianity visualized liturgy as an authoritative criterion of faith and ethics," seen, for example, in the practice of quoting liturgical texts in support of a theological argument, the patriarch said.

The importance of the community of believers in liturgy and in determining orthodoxy, he said, needs to be reaffirmed today because "no individual can ever exhaust the fullness of truth in isolation from others, outside the communion of saints."

Patriarch Bartholomew said it also is essential that as Catholics and Orthodox work toward restoring their unity neither should undertake "provocative initiatives" in ministry, apparently echoing the concerns of some Orthodox churches, particularly the Russian Orthodox Church, about the re-establishment of Catholic dioceses in traditionally Orthodox regions.

END

[Papoutsis1]

And your point is...?

God Bless

Peter

[Sean]

And your point is...?

God Bless

Peter

That it is wrong. I'm sorry Peter, but you'll never convince any of us that praying with heretics is a good thing. My conscience will not allow me to be of one body with the Ecumenists. I'd rather be dead.

I don't know if this will do any good, or if it will just encourage you to do it all the more, but please don't respond to this with some long winded, obnoxious apology for ecumenism. You're not convincing any of us. This is a traditionalist forum. You might be happier posting on a forum made up of your own co-religionists, who share your views.

[Papoutsis1]

You are my people! I don't care what you want, I care about what God wants and God wants us to be together. I don't know what "World Orthodoxy" means or "Traditionalist" means, I just know what Orthodox means, and I want us together.

Also, I wasn't being obnoxious, maybe a little, but hey if that get's you to wake up great. The moderators on this board are great as they have allowed us to talk. What is wrong with talking? We are both brothers, but with two very different visions.

Staying separate and isolated gets nothing done. Without talkingto Catholics and Protestants there can never be any healing. I'm not going to sit and stay agry over the Fourth Crusade in 1204, I'm not going to sit and stay mad at the council of florence, I'm going toalk with them and make peace with them.

Forget the Canons for a sec and talk to me about the Gospel, THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST! the canons mean NOTHING if they get in the way of the Gospel and if you think otherwise then YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!

Are we the Father (Orthodox) that runs after his prodigal son (Catholics and Protestants) or are we the son that stayed behind?

Do we go after the one lost sheep or not? The Pharisees put the Law of Moses before the true faith of God and Christ had to remind them. Howmany times will we put canons in the way of the Gospel or interpret canons in such a way that they get in the way of the Gospel?

I choose Raproachment and Love. I choose discussion over Isolation, I choose obedieance to the Gospel of OUR LORD over the misinterpretation of canons.

I'm here and until the moderators choose to kick me off I will always be here talking and loving and yes being obnoxious because I care and you are my brothers that's what you don't understand. Just because the family fights does not mean we are not a family.

I just want you to put aside the black helicopters, and the freemason garbage and the conspiracy stuff, like your 9/11 tag which I never said a word on but could have very easily as that is part of the anti-Christian Zeitgiest movie that's on the net.

Once you put the paranoia aside, and look at the facts reasonably things will become clear. Father Ephreim and his Monasteries are under the GOA and I visit one of his Monasteries once in a while and always support it with fundraisers and other events. The monastery is the Greek Orthodox Monastery of St. John Chrysostom in Plesant Prairie and even have their link on my website www.peterpapoutsis.com.

Now Fr. Ephreim was not with the GOA but came back home and is now under the EP and Metropolitan Iakovos here in Chicago. Sts. John and Athanasios Greek Orthodox Church in Chicago, IL., that has the Blessed Icon of Ayia Irenie Chrsovalandou was an Old Calendarist Church that has since come under the jurisdiction of the GOA. This was the tireless work of Former Archbishop Spyridon to brink the Old Calendarists and traditionalist back into proper Canonical Standing. Did he stopp talking? Nope.

I love the Orthodox Church, its the One True Church, why would I abandon it, abandon you? I never will. So, like I said a long time ago, we have alot to talk about and I'm here to stay.

God Bless

Peter

[Sean]

Forget the Canons for a sec and talk to me about the Gospel, THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST! the canons mean NOTHING if they get in the way of the Gospel and if you think otherwise then YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!

You're meandering into Protestantism here. The Canons do not get in the way of the Gospel. The Canons were not written by men, they were authored by the Holy Spirit through men. Love without Truth is not love at all. What the Ecumenists call love is just sentimentalism.

The True Orthodox have no problem with talking to Catholics or Protestants. There wouldn't be so many of us who are converts if this were the case. The Ecumenists seek a dialogue as equals with the Roman Catholic and Protestant organizations, whereas we openly communicate the Truth with Roman Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, etc, individuals. It is their organizations that are the problem, because they are parasynagogues, and delude individual souls, who should all be in the fold of the Church.

I've studied the history of the Orthodox involvement in the Ecumenical movement. Under confessing fathers like Fr. Georges Florovsky, Orthodoxy asserted itself as the Church. However, after the Orthodox Statement made in New Delhi in 1962, Fr. Georges was silenced by Abp. Iakovos of America. The New Delhi Statement was the last of its kind, and since then no Orthodox delegates have made official statements to the effect that the Orthodox are the One True Church in ecumenical forums.

To argue that I can't condemn heresy because I live in a free country is the same type of argumentum ad hominem that babykillers use to bully men into saying they can't oppose abortion because they don't know what it's like to carry a child. If I am ever confronted with the option of denying my faith or spilling my blood, I hope that God will give me the Grace and the courage to endure unto death. We should not use those who compromise the Faith in the face of persecution as an example for the faithful. This was the error of Sergianism. Our models should be the New Martyrs of the Catacomb Church of Russia, or St. Katherine, a young wife and mother who was murdered by the Greek police for defending her Old Calendar priest from being beaten, or the fathers of Esphigmenou who are being starved to death and denied medical supplies by your dear Patriarch and his evil lackeys in the Greek Foreign Ministry. These are certainly not people who live in the safety of America, but they are the greatest modern confessors of Orthodoxy. I choose to look to their course rather than that of compromise to save the outward structure of the Church.

The gates of hell will not prevail against the Holy Orthodox Church, and this will be God's doing, not political alliances with the EU.

[Papoutsis1]

the fathers of Esphigmenou have done this to themselves by being disobedian to their Bishop and their hunger strike is their own not the EP's.

You want to die a martyr's death? Ok, but why when you don't have to. The Holy Orthodox Church has always been declared as the One True Church by the Orthodox. However, how do you engage in ecumenical dialogue when you profess this is the face of Catholics who believe the same? You tone things down. That's what you do.

Further, I have not seen any "Traditionalist" Orthodox engaged in ecumenical dialogue with Catholics and Protestants. However, if you would like to please come go to your local Greek or OCA Orthodox Church and find when the next one is and attend and talk with people that are just as willing to learn and talk as you.

Do you know that in evangelical Protestantism there is a big shift away from the Hebrew Text to the Septuagint text? From the eclectic Greek NT Text to the Byzantine Greek NT text? Where do you think that came from?

In the American Roman Catholic Church when they translated the New American Bible their OT used the Septuagint as a reference and as a PRIMARY TEXT for the first time. Read the introduction to the NAB.

Protestant congregations started to understand and appriciate the signifigance and reality of the Euchrist and started to investigate the liturgy and incorporate liturgical forms in their worship. Baby steps to Orthodoxy?

What have the Orthodox changed? Nothing.

What about the Law of Moses? Do you not think the Law of Moses was argued just as passionately by the Pharisees to Jesus? The mis-interpretations of the Law of Moses got in the way of God's true revelation.

I believe in the canons, but not and never, at the expence of the Gospel of Christ. Not one Church Father is above the Gospel, not one Canon is above the Gospel, and you will never find a church father that says the canons are above the Gospel or should be interpreted in such a way to get in the way of the Gospel.

What about St. Basil and his Arian priests? You think that when the heresey ended those priests under St. Basil just stopped believing in Arians right away? Did not St. Basil still pray with them after they were reconciled? Did St. Basil punish them, breack away from them? OR did he love them and pray for them and pray with them and slowly bring them back to the faith. Did St. Basil violate the Canons?

You want to know how many private messages I've received from people on this board that have thanked me for being here and talking with you?

No matter what you think I love you, I care about you and will never leave you. You are my brothers and sisters and we are a strong family, even if we fight every once and awhile.

So relax, take a deep breath and calm down. All is still good.

God Bless

Peter

[Papoutsis1]

Here is the official stance and position of Scoba towards the Orthodox Church's involvement in the ecumenical movement. In this document, it is constantly reaffirmed that The Holy Orthodox Church is the One True Church. so put down the cool aid boys and girls and read carefully.

Thank you

Peter

http://www.scoba.us/assets/files/guide_for_orthodox.pdf