Cyprian Was Wrong on Rebaptism

[Evfimy]

Evfimy, the orthodox church does not recognises the baptism of heretics as being a true baptism!

You mean modern traditionalists don't. But the Orthodox/Catholic Church at the time of Saint Cyprian did. I even referenced the popes, canons and some Fathers. This shows how far the modern east has departed from the ancient Church.

You can read the canon 46 and 47 of the Apostles for this.

The west did not accept all of the apostolic canons. Those canons don't have any authority, simply because they were never ratified by the ancient popes.

Moreover, the council of Arles was a LOCAL council. The ecumenical council never decided to include it the the book of canon that are to be implemented in ALL local churches!! If you decide to follow the Arles council, then you should follow the calculation of the feast of Easter it decided and that is different from ours now.

The canons of Arles were added to the canons of Nicea which occured only 11 years later. Therefore, they have ecumenical authority.

This is an illustration : From the first ecumenical council

1. As concerns Paulianists who afterwards took refuge in the catholic Church, it is made a definition that they be rebaptized without fail.

What canon is that? I'm not familiar with the Paulianists heresy. But the fact that Nestorians, etc were forbidden rebaptism, shows Orthodoxy is wrong by rebaptizing Catholics and protestants.

There are many examples like this in the Pedalion that is the official book of canons of the Church, endorsed by the ecumenical councils.

Again, I think there are around 85 apostolic canons. I think the west only accpeted about half of them. And apostolic canons do not have the same authority as popes and councils. Do you disagree with Saint's Vincent of Lerins, Jerome, Pope Stephen, Pope Innocent? You probably do disagree with Augustine.

I appreciate your response, but it fails on all counts.

[Jean-Serge]

The supreme authority in church is an ecumenical council... and not the pope of Rome. The ecumenical council recognised as universal the canons that compose the Pedalion. If a pope doe not do so, he is wrong... But the council of Arles was not recognised as universally binding whereas the Apostolical canons were...

Moreover, the fact that we do not baptize heretics does not mean that we recognize the previous baptism. It simply means that we think that a single orthodox mystery like chrismation or confession is enough to fill with grace the previous mysteries that are not effective mysteries.

The canons that are universal are found in the Pedalion and the authority of the Pedalion is above Augustine (who was wrong in many things), Saint Vincent of Lerins and so on...

[Evfimy]

The supreme authority in church is an ecumenical council... and not the pope of Rome. The ecumenical council recognised as universal the canons that compose the Pedalion. If a pope doe not do so, he is wrong... But the council of Arles was not recognised as universally binding whereas the Apostolical canons were...

Can you show me which ecumenical council accepted the specific canons regarding rebaptism? I'm not saying it didn't, I just want to know which council and which canons. And as I said before, the Council of Nicea was held only eleven years after Arles and I believe it accepted its canons.

[Jean-Serge]

And as I said before, the Council of Nicea was held only eleven years after Arles and I believe it accepted its canons.

I have found no evidence that the Coucil of Nicea accepted the canons of Arles. However, the list of the universal canons is listed in canon 2 of Council in Trullo.

1. This too has appeared best to the this holy Council, as well as most important, that the 85 Canons handed down to us in the name of the holy and glorious Apostles, and as a matter of fact accepted and validated by the holy and blissful Fathers preceding us, be henceforth retained and left firm and secure for the care of souls and the cure of diseases. But inasmuch as we are ordered in these Canons to accept the Injunctions of the same holy Apostles (as transmitted) through Clemens, into some of which certain spurious passages destitute of piety have been interpolated long ago by the heterodox to the detriment of the Church, arid have tarnished the becoming and natural beauty of the divine dogmas for us, we have suitably weeded out such ordinances in furtherance of the edification and security of the most Christian flock, not in the least way being minded to approve the fantastic inventions of heretical mendacity that have been inserted in the genuine and uncorrupted didache (or teaching) of the Apostles. On the other hand, we ratify all the rest of the sacred Canons promulgated by our holy and blissful Fathers, to wit: the three hundred and eighteen foregathered in Nicaea, those convened in Ancyra, and furthermore also those who met in Neocaesarea, likewise those who attended the meeting in Gangra, but in addition to these also those who convened in Antioch, Syria, and furthermore also those who held a Council in Laodicea; further, again, the one hundred and fifty who convened in this God-guarded and imperial capital city, .and the two hundred who assembled at an earlier time in the metropolis of Ephesus, and the six hundred and thirty holy and blissful Fathers who met in Chalcedon. Likewise those who convened in Sardica; furthermore those in Carthage. Further and in addition to all these those now again convened in this God-guarded and imperial capital city in the time of Nectarius the president of this imperial capital city, and of Theophilus who became Archbishop of Alexandria. Furthermore also of Dionysius who became Archbishop of the great city of Alexandria, and of Peter who became Archbishop of Alexandria and a Martyr withal, and of Gregory the Thaumaturgus (or Miracle-worker) who became Bishop of Neocaesarea, of Athanasius the Archbishop of Alexandria, of Basil the Archbishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia, of Gregory of Nyssa, of Gregory the Theologian, of Amphilochius the Archbishop of Iconium, Timothy a former Archbishop of the great city of Alexandria, of Theophilus an Archbishop of the great city of the Alexandrians, of Cyril an Archbishop of Alexandria, and of Gennadius who became a Patriarch of this God-guarded imperial capital city. Furthermore, the Canon promulgated by Cyprian who became an Archbishop of the country of Africa and a martyr, and by the Council supporting him, who alone held sway in the places of the aforesaid presidents, in accordance with the custom handed down to them; and no one shall be permitted to countermand or set aside the Canons previously laid down, or to recognize and accept any Canons, other than the ones herein specified, that have been composed under a false inscription by certain persons who have taken in hand to barter the truth. If, nevertheless, anyone be caught innovating with regard to any of the said Canons, or attempting to subvert it, he shall be responsible in respect of that Canon and shall receive the penance which it prescribes and be chastised by that Canon which he has offended.

[Evfimy]

I have found no evidence that the Coucil of Nicea accepted the canons of Arles. However, the list of the universal canons is listed in canon 2 of Council in Trullo.

Trullo was not recognized in the west and did not have ecumenical authority. It was not an ecumenical council.

[Jean-Serge]

First of all, I have seen no evidence that the council of Arles was accepted in Nicea. I read the whole text of the canons of Nicea and saw nothing about this.

Trullo took place on the margin of another ecumenical council... Let keep it aside for a moment...

In the 7th ecumenical council, they say in canon one :

we welcome and embrace the divine Canons, and we corroborate the entire and rigid fiat of them that have been set forth by the renowned Apostles, who were and are trumpets of the Spirit, and those both of the six holy Ecumenical Councils and of the ones assembled regionally for the purpose of setting forth such edicts, and of those of our holy Fathers.

This means they recognize the 85 canons of the Apostles. And the canons of the local councils and the canons of the Fathers. They do not give the detailed list, which means they clearly refer to the listt given in the Council in Trullo.

[Evfimy]

Trullo was rejected by the west and therfore did not have ecumenical authority. The west accepted the 6th council, but the supplemental canons incorporated into it by the east, known as Trullo, was rejected. Nicea did not accept all of the apostolic canons. And among the canons it never accepted, were the ones regarding rebaptizing.

Canon 1 of Nicea is not referring to all 85 apostolic canons.

I believe the canons of Arles were accepted in Nicea. But I could be wrong on this. I'll have to get back to you later on this.