Are there any canonical patriarchs anymore

[Distressed Orthodox]

I, like many, am distressed about the current actions of the patriarchs, especially the patriarch of Constantinople. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how they can be doing what they do with the heretics. How can they be so willing to bow to the papists and protestants but treat Orthodox like second-class (i.e. Esphigmenou)?

My question is, are there any patriarchs that are still holding fast to the Church? Or, in the case of Churches like the Church of Greece, etc., any Archbishops/Metropolitans? And, if not, are there any Churches that have bishops that, even though they are under an ecumenist patriarch, hold fast and are non-ecumenist?

Also, when was the last time that our bishops had strayed from the Truth and the canons this much? I know this isn't the first time that the Church has had to go through troubling times not related to persecution. The one thing I rely on is the words of Christ that the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church. Thank you for your replies.

[Pravoslavnik]

Dear D.O.,

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   There are many here who can answer your question better than I, but I will briefly respond.  St. Ignatius of Antioch once wrote that, "Where the [i]bishop[/i] is, there is the Church."  Surely there have been times in history when canonical, confessing bishops were few in number--for example, during the Council of Florence when St. Mark of Ephesus was one of the few Orthodox hierarchs who refused to enter into communion with the Papists.

     There are today several traditional, non-ecumenist, Orthodox bishops in the world.  They are organized into small groups such as the Old Calendarist Greek synods, and the Russian synods of Bishop Agafangel (of the Ukraine), and ROAC, RTOC, ROCIE, etc.  Some of these are, I believe, working toward unification with one another.  For example, some of the ROCIE clergy have recently joined with Bishop Agafangel.  I do not know the intricacies of the political disputes between the various traditional Greek and Russian synods.

[joasia]

I agree with Pravo. Stay away from ecumenism.

[Kosmas]

Fear not, there are bishops who hold fast to the Faith and refuse to join with heretics. The number shrinks annually because many have fallen asleep. Sadly, Patriarchs and most of the hierarchs have joined themselves with the Enemy. So far I have found 4 bishops who though they maybe in communion with "World Orthodoxy" are against Ecumenism.

Pravoslavnik was correct in mentioning the False Council of Florence (1439) as when almost all of the Greek Orthodox Bishops betrayed the Church. I fear that something like that will occurr again. My hope is that there will be a few St. Marks when it comes as well as many Orthodox faithful to support them.

Keep the Faith!

[Papoutsis1]

Wow is all I can say if you honestly belueve that there are no canonical Bishops and that the Ecumenical Patriarch is heretical and NOT following the canons.

Why have you not gone to any Clergy-Laity Conferences and aired out your concerns? Make your voice heard. Get involved. All I see is a bunch of people who like to still back and complain and spread unsubstantiated rumors.

The Greek Orthodox Archdioces of America's Clergy-Laity Conference is held this year in Washington D.C. from July 13 thru the 17, 2008. I am a part of my delegation from my Church of St. Demetrios of Elmhurst, IL., come and join us and let us talk.

If you have the courage you or your represenatives will come. Will announce yourselves before the conference begins and airout your concerns, or simply show-up to protest and we can talk then. Issue an open letter to Archbishop Demetrios Primate of the Greek Orthodox Church and let him know you are coming. DO SOMETHING other than sit here on this board complaining about things you know nothing about.

If you are sure in you beliefs then put your money where your mouth is and have an "Ecumenical" discussion, a REAL AND OPEN DISCUSSION, with us! Or are you going to hide behind your mis-interpretation of the canons and not "TALK OR PRAY" with us because we are heretics. If you have the guts come and talk with us and let's or REAL get into the Fathers, the Canon's and what is really bugging you people that makes you think that you have the right to privately interpret the scriptures and canons the way you want.

The ball is in your Court. Will you be in D.C. this summer?

Peter

[Papoutsis1]

You discuss the council of florence as if you know what you are talking about. Heretics? Betrayal? Do you understand the historical background of the Council of Florence? Do you understand the position the Byzantine Empire was in at the time? Do you understand what happend after the council of Florence, and its exact fomulations?

Please read "The History of the Byzantine State" to truly understand the Council of Florence.

I give up, God just help these poor people see the light.

God Bless

Peter

PS as for the Monastery on Mt. Athos that is in open disobediance with the EP the EP is doing what it is doing because its called discipline, and whithout it we become like many on this board.

[joasia]

Pap,

That's your opinion. You obviously have a one-sided view. Plus, you show bad-form with your constant insults.

You express a complete disrespect for us here. Perhaps a papist website would be more appropriate to your level.

And the reason that bishops left the Constantinople Patriarchate and the Moscow Patriarchate is because they've already had the "talks" and they saw that the ecumenist agenda was being pushed forwarded.

You want to pray with the pope, then go ahead. Nobody's stopping you, but we have the right not to want to participate.

So...what? You came here for some "schismatic" bashing? That's just plain low. And shows that you harbor such hatefulness in your heart.

Pretty low, considering the Great Lent begins tomorrow.