In Defense of evolution, Papism and the EP by Papoutsis1

[Evfimy]

Ok first, you actually believe Evolution is a heresy? OK what church council has declared evolution a heresy?

A Church Council is not necessary. No Council ever declared the use of cocaine a heresy? Does that make it permitted? God gives us a brain and expects us to use it. Your argument is from silence and thus invalid. Someone who is open to evolution, has no business translating the Holy Scriptures.

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese sincerely takes the position of "Theistic Evolution."

The seed bed of ecumenism. Hardly a good example. Theistic evolution is not compatible with the Scriptures or sound reason.

Hate to burst your bubble but the first eleven chapters of Genesis cannot be taken literally.

Are you serious? And you wrote a translation of the Bible? I know of many scientists and biblical scholars who take Genesis literally.

If you do and actually think the world was created 6,000 years ago you haven't cracked a science book open for a looooong time my friend.

The Church Fathers, and many highly esteemed biblical commentators and scientists believe in a young earth.

Evolution is not a heresy.

It might be worse.

teaching a materialistic view of Evolution that is the heresy not the actual creative process.

That's part of the decption. All evolution theories are fundementally anti-theistic and anti-supernatural. The whole thing is really silly. What purpose would God have to take millions of years to create? He could have done it all in less than a second. I think theistic evolution leads to a finite God who needs lots of time to work. Not the infinite God of biblical revelation.

We have to define evolution. No one disputes micro-evolution (changes within a kind). It is macro-evolution (change from species) that is the problem and in which there is not a shred of evidence.

If this is what you people actually believe then none of you know nothing about scientific scrutiny.

No, you're just following the party-line of atheists and Free-Masons who have as their agenda the obliteration of a Christian theistic worldview. And churches like the Greek Archdiocese are helping them make it possible.

Finally the God of the Bible and the God of science and evolution are the same!

The only problem is that evolution is not science. No one is against science, we are against LIES being taught in our public school system at the tax payers expense.

What Bible have you been reading? The Bible says nothing in support of evolution.

there is no contradiction.

There are huge contradictions both scientifically and in terms of worldviews.

I make a very humble suggestion use your minds and start thinking for yourselves. God does not want people who cannot think for themselves.

But you are not thinking for yourself. You are following the lies of atheists and Freemasons. We are not against science. We are against LIES and the people who pontificate them. Evolution is the greatest deception and fraud in scientific history.

Does the theory of Evolution have problems? Yes, I will admit this, but they are problems that can and will eventually be worked out.

Yes, via Creationism and intelligent design. The more we learn about science, the more it points to God.

Especially with the completion of the Human Genome Project that shows that Modern Homo Sapiens (i.e. modern man) is far older that 6,000 years! How do you argue with genetics?

That's a lie.

Even when it comes to the principle of "Irreducible Complexity" if one read's Darwin's Black Box by Michael J. Behe not even he discounts evolution and and the old earth principle, but adds to, or could add to, the Theistic Evolution position (even though I believe his hypothesis is unfairly being tied to creationism).

I have not read his book so I have no comment.

Where is the contradition or even heresy with our faith? Is Father Stanley Harakis of the GOA a heretic?

If he believes in the lie of evolution he is.

Well, I guess on this message board he is. This is a real shame that I have heard these thoughts come from Orthodox Christians. We of all the Christian Churches have the repository of classical thought and philosophy that should challenge our minds and help us to critically think for ourselves.
I suggest that everybody seriously re-think their position because its not God versus Darwin, its the light of intelligence versus the darkness of ignorance.

It is the truth of God and Creation versus the LIE and fraud of evolution.

EVOLUTION DEBUNKED

www.reasons.org

www.intelligentdesign.org

www.creationevidence.org

www.drdino.com

[Evfimy]

I found this article on what is wrong with theistic evolution. And people should remember that evolution was not meant to harmonize with a supernatural worldview, but to replace it.

http://www.apologeticspress.com/articles/1990

[Papoutsis1]

I don't think I will be blasted out of the water now that I fully understand your position or I should say positions. If you and others like you actually believe that the GOA is heretical then you are truly lost.

If you are part of a break-away or schismatic group by what authority do you say that the GOA, or OCA or Russian Church Abroad is heretical or is the bed of ecuminisim? Is this your own private opinion? Because we talk with Catholics? Because certain monks on Athos are directly defying the Ecumenical Patriarch in direct disobediace to Canon Law and the Gospel of Christ?

I have seen many a schismatic Bishop and congregation and they all tend to be very fundamentalist, rejecting of even the most simple of scientific facts and even believing that the earth is flat, and that man never went to the moon.

I saw your links below and they are from groups and men that many I grew up reading about or have read about their work which I most strenously disagree with. Sorry to tell you this again, but Human Genetics have dated man far older than 6,000 years old. You want to argue with Genetics go right ahead, but we convict or let people out of jail based on genetic evidence.

I am truly sorry you and others have locked yourselves into a world of darkness and fanaticisim the likes of which attacked America on 9-11 and are still fighting America and the world in Pakistan, Afganistan and Iraq.

There are many good and wonderful Orthodox Christians that believe in the doctrines, morality and faith of the One True Church without checking their brains at the door, and believe in Thestic Evolution.

I will pray ernestly for you. God Bless.

May the Love of Chirst illuminate your heart as well as your mind.

Peter

[Papoutsis1]

The Human Genome Project dates the genetic history of man to 250,000 years. The head of this project is a Dr. Francis S. Collins, a devote Evangelical Christian and Theistic Evolutionist and author of the book "Language of God."

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese states on its website:

3) Man's creation

Among the visible things that God created is the crown of His creation, man. In Genesis we read the story of God's creation. We cannot interpret this story to the letter; however, its message is loud and clear: God is the creator of everything that exists; there is order in God's creation, and a development (even "evolution") from lower forms to higher forms of life; God created everything good; man, created in God's image and likeness, has a very special place in God's creation, called to be God's proxy toward His creation.

But we are all heretics so what's the point right? Through the heresy card out there and through our people, our Church and most importanatly our God into the dark ages, close the door on our God-given reason and call it a day, right?

Fr. John Matusiak, of the Orthodox Church of America, rightly states: "Orthodoxy has no problem with evolution as a scientific theory, only with evolution -- as some people may view it -- eliminating the need for God as Creator of All." Fr. Matusiak also states that Orthodox do not believe that our souls evoluved which is also correct.

Professor Theodosius Dobzhansky, a Russian Orthodox, wrote a famous 1973 essay entitled "Nothing makes sense Except in the Light of Evolution," espousing evolutionary creationism (Theistic Evolution):

"I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God's, or Nature's, method of creation. Creation is not an event that happened in 4004 BC; it is a process that began some 10 billion years ago and is still under way... Does the evolutionary doctrine clash with religious faith? It does not. It is a blunder to mistake the Holy Scriptures for elementary textbooks of astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology. Only if symbols are construed to mean what they are not intended to mean can there arise imaginary, insoluble conflicts... the blunder leads to blasphemy: the Creator is accused of systematic deceitfulness."

So are these Orthodox heretics? Is the bible a science book or as we say in Orthodoxy "God's Love Letter to Mankind" ?

Here is a wonderful article that many should read. Its may unlock certain doors that are shut.

http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/20 ... stian.html

I leave you with this. God Bless.

Peter

[joasia]

Pap

You believe in evolution. The kind that started from nothing and then there was a big bang and then it formed the earth and then the molecular pool of goo slowly evolved into what became humans and animals and fowl and fish.

Ok. The theological evolutionists subscribe that God was the force that started all of this.

Did you know that evolution, in it's original percepts defied the existence of a Supreme Being? That was their whole point. That was Darwin's attempt...to convince people that there was no Supranatural force, but that it was possible by pure natural concequences.

Since that didn't work well, the Evolutionist diehards had to appeal to those who still went to church and WORSHIPPED God. So, they tweeked it a mite and said: SURE, OF COURSE THERE IS A GOD. BUT HE ALLOWED THE COURSE OF NATURE, WHICH HE CREATED, TO SLOWLY DEVELOPE.

So tell me, at what point in time did the first human form attain a soul..that which God created, since evolution and creation are compatible, to you theo-evolutionists.

Since you are so sure about the fact that our world was created by evolution, then you must ALSO have PROOF of when the first soul was created.

Because obviously, the Old Testament is not an accurate source to follow, by your standards, as an "Orthdox Christian".

[Evfimy]

Papoutsis,

the Greek Archdiocese has membership in the World Council of Churches -- an organization created by protestants which has as its agenda ecumenism and the unity of religions.

The ecumenical patriarche is a Freemason.

The Mason's have infiltrated both Orthodoxy and the Catholic Churches with the sole intention of destroying both.

The GOA is ecumenistic.

The Holy Fathers categorically affirm, that those who are heretics or in communion with heretics, are enemies of God.

Regarding Esphigmenon, they are right and of course the Freemasonic and heretical ecumenical patriarche is wrong.

http://www.esphigmenou.com/

Regarding human genetic dating, this is utter nonsense. The dating system is inaccacurate and based on evolutionary pressuppositions.

[Papoutsis1]

Wow both of you sound utterly incredible. You not only discard all scientific knowledge, but call the Ecumenical Patriarch a Freemason and a Heretic. You also both seem to know when the Human Soul was formed that's just great! Maybe you can also tell me what flavor cheese the moon is.

I've been to Constandinople and have seen first hand the suffering and complete repression of the Ecumenical Patriarch and for you two to demean him is the true Blasphamy and tells me that not only are you truly lost and know nothing of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but that you are nothing more than crule schismatics AND NARROW-MINDED FUNDAMENTALISTS that are no more Orthodox than my pet cockatoo.

You ever been to Constandinople? Do you know what happend and is still happening to the Patriarch of Constandinople? Do you actually blieve that the GOA is heretical because he talks and prays with Roman Catholics? I guess that whole love thy neighbor stuff is not as important as believing that the world is only 6,000 years old.

According to you the late Alexander Men must also have been a heretic even though he was a faithful son of the Russian Orthodox Church but because he believed in Evolution he's damned to hell.

My family has been Greek Orthodox since 1765 tracing our liniage back to Asia Minor on my Father's side to the Pontos region, and father still on my mother's side according to baptismal records in her village of Hadrinou in Greece. My mother and Father taught me my faith. A faith built on Christ and his Holy Church and I have had to deal with people like you in Greece and in America who know less about the Orthodox Church and even less about Jesus Christ and his Holy Gospel. However, I still talk to you because I truly love you and want you to know God's saving truth and reconcile with his Holy Church.

Believe what you want. Ignorant people stay ignorant because uncertainty scares them. You want to put God in a box, I don't. I follow well reasoned scientific though by men and women who have looked at the Human DNA structure, many who devoutly believe in God, and have calculated honestly and accutately due to the rate of genetic mutation that humanity has been on this plant for 250,000 years. The is the HUMAN GENOME PROJECT!!!
It doesn't get more scientific than this.

You want to know when the first soul was created, well ask God not science. I don't know how God turns bread and wine into the real Body and real Blood of Christ, but I know it happens during Holy Communion. Do you know how it happens?

Finally, the Old Testament is very accurate when it comes to our faith, but IT IS NOT A SCIENCE BOOK!! It tells us that God created the world and humanity and I absolutely believe that. The Bible does not tell us the HOW. Science tells us the how.

The mechanism of evolution should not be confused with the philosophical baggage people put on it. Professor Stephen Jay Gould is an agnostic who works with Jewish and Christian Theistic Evolutionists and he has said that the mechanism of evolution is all we really know occurrs the how is up for debate.

Agnostics and Atheists believe in un-directed natural selection.
Theistic Evolutionists believe in directed selection through the creative will and energy of God Who not only created the world, but is still creating it and constantly supporting His creation with His will and Energy.

I am done. I have given you the light and you refuse to see it. All you want to do is hate the Ecumenical Patriarch, disobey canon law, follow renegade Bishops, believe the world is 6,000 years old, and maybe even flat, and hate Roman Catholics, and just about everybody else. And you call yourselves Orthodox?

Where is the Love of Christ to go to our fallen brothers (Catholics, Lutherans, etc.,) and reason with them in hopes of bringing them back to the fold. This is wrong? So we stay with the 99 sheep, but don't go after the one lost sheep in the ravine?

We don't run and hug our Prodigal children, but behave like the brother who stayed behind who complained to his father for going to meet his lost son. We are not to have compassion, mercy, love. We are to let our fallen brothers die in their sin and not help them? This is why you hate the WCC and NCCC? Well you hate, I want to go and get the lost sheep and hug my lost son and welcome them back home. I want to Love as Chist loved us and still loves us.

This problem that you and others have is much deeper than disagreeing over Evolution, it is based on the fact that you are schismatics that have lost your true way. This is why I am talking with you and not giving up. This is why we in the GOA talk to the Catholics and the Lutherans and don't give up because lost sheep and prodigal children deserve to be found, loved and brought back home.

So I will stay and talk and reason with you, as I do with the Catholics and Anglicans and Lutherans, etc., because all of God's lost Children should have a way back home, even you.

So I'm here and here to stay because we have alot to talk about and it is much better to light a candle than to scream at the darkness. God Bless and we will definitly talk soon.

Peter