Nativity Fast

Euthymios · Post by **Euthymios** » Sat 5 January 2008 2:44 pm

I have a question about this fast. I have noticed there are a lot of days on my calendar that say "wine allowed." Question: why wine? Why not cool aid allowed, coca cola or tea allowed? What is it about wine? Was it the case in ancient times that the Church was comprised of alcoholics they needed to accomodate? I don't even like wine. Wine is a non-dairy product. I don't understand this.

GOCPriestMark · Post by **GOCPriestMark** » Sat 5 January 2008 4:13 pm

The calendar should say "wine and oil allowed". This category is one level up from vegetables only or "xerophagi" which means "dry eating". Then there is "fish allowed" (which also includes wine and oil). During fasting seasons this is all the higher the level goes. The next level would be eggs and dairy and after that all meats.
Some of the answer to your question lies in the heaviness of the food and its effect on the body. Wine and oil are lighter than fish. Wine was the norm before the age of refrigeration. Many of the faithful do without wine, especially recluses, but it is wrong to assume that everyone who drinks wine is an alcoholic. There is even a monastic typicon which specifies the amount of wine allowed. (I was informed of this on the Holy Mountain.)

Euthymios · Post by **Euthymios** » Sat 5 January 2008 5:06 pm

"Wine and oil are lighter than fish."

My Response: So is cool aid, cocoa cola and tea. I don't understand this, but I am trying to. I'm serious. We are not in the dark ages anymore. We have refrigeration. Also, this seems to promote alcohol. People see wine is allowed and probably run for it when allowed. This doesn't make sense. How does wine aid in spiritual development -- especially during a fast? Why don't they say "beer allowed"? What's the difference? Both are socially destructive and physically and mentally un-healthy.

I also never understood why Orthodox people make food that looks like eggs on certain fast days. The purpose is to abstain. Just go without. Why even make something that looks like a non-fast item. I don't understand the mentality behind certain Orthodox practices.

patrick1000 · Post by **patrick1000** » Sat 5 January 2008 5:17 pm

Euthymios wrote:
What's the difference? Both are socially destructive and physically and mentally un-healthy.

In excessive amounts, yes.

A sinner,
Patrick

GOCPriestMark · Post by **GOCPriestMark** » Sat 5 January 2008 9:15 pm

Euthymios wrote:
So is cool aid, cocoa cola and tea.

Yes, These drinks meet the rules for fasting, they are not prohibited. Allowing wine is a 'lightening' of the strict fast.

We are not in the dark ages anymore. We have refrigeration.

The fasting rules are not concerned whether we have refrigeration or not.

Also, this seems to promote alcohol. People see wine is allowed and probably run for it when allowed. This doesn't make sense.

This is a very American answer.

How does wine aid in spiritual development -- especially during a fast?

How does any food aid in the spiritual development? Only if we offer thanks for it unto our Creator and use it in a moderate, non-gluttonous manner. Those who fast strictly appreciate the relief and strength given from a 'wine and oil' day. They are assigned to week-ends and days when the services in Church are more strenuous.

Why don't they say "beer allowed"? What's the difference?

? Wine is wine and beer is beer, compare them from a Wikipedia search if you are unsure.

Both are socially destructive and physically and mentally un-healthy.

Like Patrick said: "In excessive amounts, yes."
I think you will need to look at the fact that the Orthodox Church has been following these rules for many 100s of years. The view towards alcohol in America and Russia seems to be much more the source of the societal problem. In the Orthodox Church certainly no one is forced to use it, total abstinence from it is a highly praised practice also, but when it is used it is to be done with restraint. Drunkeness is indeed a sin.

I also never understood why Orthodox people make food that looks like eggs on certain fast days. The purpose is to abstain.Just go without.Why even make something that looks like a non-fast item.

They are abstaining, they are not eating eggs. There are no prohibitions in our fasting rules at all about how food looks. Any parent reading this will understand it well. It is probably better to not fool yourself, but it can also depend on the cooks and their limitations.

I don't understand the mentality behind certain Orthodox practices.

As in everything, it is best to cut off our own will and follow the guidelines of the Orthodox Church as directed by our spiritual father. These rules didn't get made up over-night, they are from the experience of many great and holy people. It can take many years of experience to begin to understand, but we'll never get there if we don't put them into practice, with hope in God.

Euthymios · Post by **Euthymios** » Sat 5 January 2008 9:43 pm

"Wine is wine and beer is beer, compare them from a Wikipedia search if you are unsure."

Yes, but both are totally arbitrary. You are avoiding my question. And I think you and the other fellow just danced around it. Why did they pick wine as opposed to green tea or cool aid? It doesn't make any sense. And the societal and mental problems involved with alcohol is not an american concern. It is a global concern. Its a pandemic. I hate wine. I find more relief in tea or water. It just seems like they had to accomodate all the alcoholics and give them some relief.

Why do they assume we even want wine?

And I don't understand why they dish food that looks like non-fast food?

They're violating the whole purpose.

The purpose is to go without. Just sacrifice it! There is no spiritual benefit if you make and taste food that is like the real thing.

I have been Orthodox for 15 years and I still do not understand the mentality for certain practices.

Euthymios · Post by **Euthymios** » Sat 5 January 2008 9:51 pm

Another thing, some people require more protein then others. I have blood type "O". I'm not a doctor or nutritionist, but I was told by a nutritionist that "O" types need meat. Soy and other non-meat sources of protein do not contain the full chain of amino acids. I find that everytime these big fasts come around, my brain literally starves for protein. My anxiety and depression intensifies. You have no idea how difficult these fasts are for me and the problems they cause. I'm not married so I don't have a good cook preparing nutritious (non-meat) meals, and I don't live in a monastery where they make good meals. I don't even really know how to cook. Last Lent was so severe for me, my brain was so starving for protein, I almost had to be hospitalized. And this Nativity has been no walk in the park. I e-mailed two priests I know explaining this and they never responded. Next Lent I have to have some kind of economia. That's all there is too it.

This makes me think the fast rules are man-made because whoever estbalished then didn't know anything about nutrition or dietary laws.