Evolution and an Orthodox Patristic understanding of Genesis

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


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What do you believe vis a vis Creationism vs. Darwinism?

I believe in creationism like the Holy Fathers and Bible teach

20
83%

I believe in Darwin's Theory of Evolution and think the Church Fathers were wrong

2
8%

I am not sure yet, I need to read more Patristics and scientific theories

2
8%
 
Total votes: 24

Pravoslavnik
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Of Apes and Epistemology

Post by Pravoslavnik »

If you dispute the mechanism of evolution by natural selection, how do you explain the data of paleobiology? For example, how do you explain all of the "blind alleys" and extinct species of earth's long history--the evolutionary adaptations that survived for specific eras, under specific environmental conditions? How do you explain the observed differentiation of species based on differential environments throughout the biosphere--e.g., the fact that island variants of species tend to be smaller than their mainland relatives? How do you explain the very gradual process of increasing complexity of life forms following eons of unicellular life in the primordial oceans, at a time when earth had not yet developed an oxygenated atmosphere? In short, how do you explain the vast progressively differentiated, complex evolving ecosystems of paleobiology? What is your mechanism? Do you think that God was micromanaging all of these genetic variations on a "case by case" basis, rather than using natural laws? Why wouldn't God use natural laws and processes to create the cosmos, just as God regulates the motion of planetary bodies and subatomic particles through natural laws?

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  It is not enough for the Fundamentalists to say that evolutionary theory is not true, or not scientific--despite all of the scientific data to support it.  They must have an adequate, alternative explanation for the data.  To say that God simply "did it" (the creation of life on earth) is tantamount to saying that God makes every apple fall to earth from a tree branch through micro-management of the cosmos by Divine intervention--through never-ending, conscious acts of the Divine will, rather than natural processes or "laws" of nature.  Why is biology exempt, in the Fundamentalist world view, from natural laws?  I can think of no clearer evidence that we are descended from apes than the fact that so many modern homo sapiens refuse to recognize the science behind evolutionary theory.

The issue is not whether you are truly Orthodox, or whether I am truly Orthodox. I will do you the courtesy of assuming, for the sake of argument, that you are truly Orthodox, like me. It is whether Orthodox Christians can accept the truths of science--including those of paleobiology and geology-- as true, or whether they must accept the Protestant Fundamentalist misinterpretations of science and Genesis, as you do, in order to be considered truly Orthodox. My position is that one can be fully Orthodox, and also accept the truths of science, since truth is an intercalated whole.

There are clearly aspects of truth that are not delineated in Holy Scripture or in the writings of the Church Fathers. For example, the Church does not tell me whether mitochondrial DNA comes from the maternal or paternal DNA in humans--such truth comes to us through scientific observation and study. Joanna has asserted, earlier, that all truth comes from scripture or the hagiography of the Church. This is simply not true. As for the Big Bang theory of cosmogeny--it is consistent with Orthodox theology, which asserts that God created the universe ex nihilo. An Orthodox Christian can surely believe that God created the universe through the Big Bang, and also created complex life forms on earth through evolutionary mechanisms, which elegantly explain the paleobiological data.

I will reiterate. The so-called conflict between science and Christianity is a fictitious creation of two narrow-minded groups; some arrogant, atheistic scientists, like Stephen Jay Gould, and some Fundamentalist Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians. Both of these groups have rigid, inaccurate perceptions of either science or true Christianity. People in both groups are very resistant to learning and changing their paradigms to incorporate other aspects of truth.

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jckstraw72
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Post by jckstraw72 »

I will reiterate. The so-called conflict between science and Christianity is a fictitious creation of two narrow-minded groups; some arrogant, atheistic scientists, like Stephen Jay Gould, and some Fundamentalist Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians. Both of these groups have rigid, inaccurate perceptions of either science or true Christianity. People in both groups are very resistant to learning and changing their paradigms to incorporate other aspects of truth.

there is no conflict btwn science and Christianity -- but evolution isnt science. when you say this you are assuming evolution to be a fact. i know creation to be a fact, so btwn Christianity and creation science there is no conflict.

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jckstraw72
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Post by jckstraw72 »

science must conform to revelation, not revelation to science.

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

Pravoslavnik,

You are a really confused soul.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

...tantamount to saying that God makes every apple fall to earth from a tree branch through micro-management of the cosmos by Divine intervention--through never-ending, conscious acts of the Divine will...

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But, the very hairs on your head are all numbered." (Matt. 10;29-30)

I can think of no clearer evidence that we are descended from apes than the fact that so many modern homo sapiens refuse to recognize the science behind evolutionary theory.

It are the apes that believe in evolution, for they look only to the base material world and they cannot raise their minds to the spiritual height that glorifies God for His creations. They cannot understand that God is Omnipotent and is capable of creating a man in one moment of 24 hrs of time and not millions of years old.

You still haven't answered my question about what the evolutionists explain for the existence of the soul.

Where does the soul come into play? Or do you believe we don't have one? Because the main issue that the hardcore evolutionist support is that we don't have souls. They are atheists. Whether you want to believe it or not, they cannot believe in God and therefore the soul. Whereas, even in the other religions, they believe in the soul, although their image of God is greatly tainted...but, I don't see any arguements amongst them about creation. It just seems to focus on the battle against Christianity.

Science is there to explain the world around us, but it is complete incompetance for men to make up theories that are outside the scope of Orthodox teachings that the holy fathers and saints upheld.

I don't need your courtesy to state that I am Orthodox. But, I know that if I held a belief that was not according to the holy fathers who were inspired to teach the truth of God, then I would be corrected. And the moderators are witness to some occasions when I was mistaken in my comments. Others responded in correcting me and I realized I was in error.

But, I don't see the holy fathers ever supporting the evolutionist view.

As for the Big Bang theory

I like Angela's explanation. hehe. I'm still chuckling. BANG! There it is.

Do you read with your eyes closed? I posted quotes by St. Basil. Do you consider him an Orthodox Fundamentalist?

You are mistaken in your belief. One day, I pray God will open your eyes. And the way He works in our lives...He will probably make you a great advocate against evolution.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

Pravoslavnik
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Reiterating the Iterations for Our Fundamentalist Brethern

Post by Pravoslavnik »

If you dispute the mechanism of evolution by natural selection, how do you explain the data of paleobiology? For example, how do you explain all of the "blind alleys" and extinct species of earth's long history--the evolutionary adaptations that survived for specific eras, under specific environmental conditions? How do you explain the observed differentiation of species based on differential environments throughout the biosphere--e.g., the fact that island variants of species tend to be smaller than their mainland relatives? How do you explain the very gradual process of increasing complexity of life forms following eons of unicellular life in the primordial oceans, at a time when earth had not yet developed an oxygenated atmosphere? In short, how do you explain the vast progressively differentiated, complex evolving ecosystems of paleobiology? What is your mechanism? Do you think that God was micromanaging all of these genetic variations on a "case by case" basis, rather than using natural laws? Why wouldn't God use natural laws and processes to create the cosmos, just as God regulates the motion of planetary bodies and subatomic particles through natural laws?

It is not enough for the Fundamentalists to say that evolutionary theory is not true, or not scientific--despite all of the scientific data to support it. They must have an adequate, alternative explanation for the data. To say that God simply "did it" (the creation of life on earth) is tantamount to saying that God makes every apple fall to earth from a tree branch through micro-management of the cosmos by Divine intervention--through never-ending, conscious acts of the Divine will, rather than natural processes or "laws" of nature. Why is biology exempt, in the Fundamentalist world view, from natural laws? I can think of no clearer evidence that we are descended from apes than the fact that so many modern homo sapiens refuse to recognize the science behind evolutionary theory.

The issue is not whether you are truly Orthodox, or whether I am truly Orthodox. I will do you the courtesy of assuming, for the sake of argument, that you are truly Orthodox, like me. It is whether Orthodox Christians can accept the truths of science--including those of paleobiology and geology-- as true, or whether they must accept the Protestant Fundamentalist misinterpretations of science and Genesis, as you do, in order to be considered truly Orthodox. My position is that one can be fully Orthodox, and also accept the truths of science, since truth is an intercalated whole.

There are clearly aspects of truth that are not delineated in Holy Scripture or in the writings of the Church Fathers. For example, the Church does not tell me whether mitochondrial DNA comes from the maternal or paternal DNA in humans--such truth comes to us through scientific observation and study. Joanna has asserted, earlier, that all truth comes from scripture or the hagiography of the Church. This is simply not true. As for the Big Bang theory of cosmogeny--it is consistent with Orthodox theology, which asserts that God created the universe ex nihilo. An Orthodox Christian can surely believe that God created the universe through the Big Bang, and also created complex life forms on earth through evolutionary mechanisms, which elegantly explain the paleobiological data.

I will reiterate. The so-called conflict between science and Christianity is a fictitious creation of two narrow-minded groups; some arrogant, atheistic scientists, like Stephen Jay Gould, and some Fundamentalist Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians. Both of these groups have rigid, inaccurate perceptions of either science or true Christianity. People in both groups are very resistant to learning and changing their paradigms to incorporate other aspects of truth.
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jckstraw72
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Post by jckstraw72 »

I will reiterate. The so-called conflict between science and Christianity is a fictitious creation of two narrow-minded groups; some arrogant, atheistic scientists, like Stephen Jay Gould, and some Fundamentalist Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians. Both of these groups have rigid, inaccurate perceptions of either science or true Christianity. People in both groups are very resistant to learning and changing their paradigms to incorporate other aspects of truth.

there is no conflict btwn science and Christianity -- but evolution isnt science. when you say this you are assuming evolution to be a fact. i know creation to be a fact, so btwn Christianity and creation science there is no conflict.

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